Template talk:Stafford-Manchester Line RDT

Poynton Midway railway station

Moved from User talk:Useddenim

On the Stafford to Manchester line template, ever since this was first published, there was never a mention made of Poynton Midway station.

Before I decided to enter this station to that template, I had a number of meetings with the Poynton historical society, as there had been some confusion regarding the full opening and closing dates of this particular station and it was only when consensus was reached that I added these dates to the new posting entry when it was finally made, noting the previous confusion that so existed.

This was not just an addition of dates for additions sake, as I note the current prevailing view on that particular matter, but a specific part of the posting that could be referred to by other members who might require that specific date information, noting that there is no actual Wikipedia article on the website about Poynton Midway station.

Paul Sidorczuk (talk) 08:51, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

In this case, I think the best course of action would be to create a stub article for Poynton Midway railway station. I would suggest that Britmax (talk) would be a good editor to ask for assistance, if you feel you need help in creating a station article from scratch. Useddenim (talk) 12:52, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

The same would apply to Plas Power railway station, since you have already taken the trouble to do the research. Useddenim (talk) 14:25, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Poynton Midway only had a short life. Unless something notable happened in that time I would be inclined to add a paragraph to the article on the station that replaced it. Although I possibly started articles on such stations in the pas I now think that this would leave us with a lot of stubs which would need a lot of work to expand, as these stations tend to leave a very sketchy paper trail. Britmax (talk) 06:51, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Congleton Upper Junction station

(moved from User talk:Nthep

I note that you have deleted Congleton Upper Junction station from the line template of the Stafford to Manchester line, stating no station ever existed.

I have been asked to query your decision by a colleague who gives the following information:-

RAILSCOT has an entry for this station Quick "Railway Passenger Stations of Great Britain" book shows the station. The station was shown in the Bradshaw June 1864 timetable.

Would you reconsider and cause the station to be re-entered back onto the line template.

Xenophon Philosopher (talk) 18:18, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Any reference to Congleton Upper is based on a single entry in Bradshaw. As Quick says "perhaps tt error – e.g. passing time at physical junction translated into station". Bradshaw is not infallible. There are no sources otherwise - no NSR company documents, no local papers, no contemporary maps,nothing to suggest its existence. Items need solid evidence, not passing myth and Wikipedia should not be substantiating and perpetuating a probable error until it is established that it isn't an error. Nthep (talk) 19:49, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your response and my colleague has been informed. He wonders if a railway station opened specifically for a single special occasion would be recognized as such by Wikipedia, as RAILSCOT do actually show this railway station in their records under "Locations". He asks you to note a historical article in the Birmingham Daily Post that was printed on 4th August 1859 under the article heading of "Stoke on Trent" that stated "Opening of the new Biddulph Line of Railway. Yesterday, the new line of railway from Stoke on Trent to Biddulph was formerly opened for mineral traffic. At two o'clock, 300 invited guests started from Stoke station and proceeded over the new line in a special train, appropriately decorated with flags,to the point of junction with the main line, about a mile below Congleton where the Biddulph line terminates. The navies who had been employed in the formation of the line were conveyed in a special train to the same spot, previous to the starting of the visitors train and were drawn up in a line by the side of the temporary station which had been erected and heatedly cheered the occupants of the visitors train as it drew up to its point of destination, arrived at which the company alighted and proceeded to a tent in a field close by, where a luncheon of a very recherché description was served up by Mr. Sherriff of the Railway Hotel, Stoke"

Xenophon Philosopher (talk) 22:23, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@Xenophon Philosopher and G-13114: I've moved this discussion from my talk page to here for a more permanent record. The evidence for the existence of a station at Congleton Upper junction is to say the least very, very flimsy. As I said above most of the mentions are all based on the one time appearance of the name in Bradshaw in 1864 and as Michael Quick points out this may well have been a printing error, mistaking a passing time in a working timetable for a physical station stop. Then there are the newspaper reports. These (and here is a link to a contemporary one in the Staffordshire Advertiser [1]) are all from 1859 - that is when the Biddulph Valley line opened for goods traffic. There is no doubt that the NSR celebrated and I wouldn't doubt that a temporary structure was put up for the day to enable the participating dignitaries to alight from the special trains, although the Staffordshire Advertiser account makes no mention of such. As the Biddulph line did not open for passenger traffic until June 1864 there is no reason for the company to have built a station in 1859 except for this one-day wonder. That is, imo, not sufficient to say that there was such a station and to include it in RDTs; it is enough of an event to mention in the article on the Biddulph Valley line but no more than that.

Moving onto 1864 and I don't think it is a coincidence that the one appearance in Bradshaw happens to be the month that the Biddulph line opens for passenger traffic and I am in agreement with Quick that Bradshaw's staff misread the working timetable and inserted Congleton Upper as a station rather than as a passing time. What is happening is [[WP:|synthesis|]], people on various forums are putting a newspaper report from 1859 and a timetable entry from five years later together to make a case for the existence of this station. If there had been such a station why does it not feature in NSR working timetables from August 1859 onwards? Why do none of the various books on the NSR mention it? Simple answer - because it never existed.

Later this year there is a new book on the Biddulph Valley line due for publication which I hope will throw some light on this topic but for now I am very, very unconvinced that any such station existed and resist any attempts to make Wikipedia propagate an error.Nthep (talk) 09:51, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

As you say, the new book on the line in question may hopefully carry full and detailed information.

In the mean time, what would be the procedure for the removal of the entry on this station on the Wikipedia "List of closed railway stations of Britain", that shows 1864 as the closure date.

Would you care to view the entry in RAILSCOT of this station under its "Locations" section to see what is actually said and then notify them of your views on the matter, which will cause them to delete the said item in their records.

Xenophon Philosopher (talk) 09:43, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be best to hold off to see what the book says before taking any actions? G-13114 (talk) 13:07, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

You may well be right in what you say, but a precedent has already been set by the deletion of the station on the line template.

Xenophon Philosopher (talk) 17:44, 8 June 2020 (UTC)