Template talk:Orthodox Judaism

Neturei Karta

NK is in the template, Satmar is not. In fact not a single Chassidic group is there. Better that way perhaps, because otherwise we might get a fight on which to include and which not, and the list would grow to include 20 - 30 groups (Chabad, Satmar, Bobov, Belz for sure). Anyway, I think NK should be taken out. It's a small group of weirdos who have been condemned by everybody for associating with the PA and Iran. Thoughts? --Rabbeinu 20:03, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Neturei Karta are a group within Orthodox Judaism, whether or not you agree with them. They do not associate with Iran—that was a fringe group of weirdos criticised by leading figures in NK.--Redaktor 23:00, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rabbeinu: Hasidic Judaism includes all Hasidic groups, just click on it and it will take you to them. Neturei Karta is not a Hasidic group only, they are a long-standing known group with Hasidim, Misnagdim, even yekkas and academics who have joined them over the years, some very respectable people, and all sorts under their umbrella ideology. So it has nothing to do with Hasidim. NK are not weirdos, they have been part of the Haredi scene in Yerushlayim for a long time and they respresent a very powerful notion. See WP:IDONTLIKEIT. IZAK 12:07, 20 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Order

There seems to be no rhyme or reason for the order in which articles appear in this template. Please explain the order.--Redaktor 23:03, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Redaktor, there is no "grand scheme" so far, you are welcome to think of one. This template was following the (technical) outline of the {{Conservative Judaism}} template. Essentially, it starts with the main Orthodox groups about which there are key articles (Haredi, Hasidic, Modern Orthodox), then moves on to the main Orthodox political parties in Israel (UTJ, Shas, NRP) and worldwide organizations (Agudah, OU), and then on to some of the main ideologies (Torah Umada, Torah Im Drech Eretz), and it includes some of the main educational institutions (Yeshivas and day schools) of Orthodoxy. What is not included in this general set-up? IZAK 12:14, 20 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There does need to be some sense of order. If necessary put them in separate lines, by theme. At the moment it is a hotch-potch in which it is difficult to make sense of the articles listed. Given your explanation (which I could not have worked out myself!), I would lay it out as follows (first draft):

Haredi Judaism - Hasidic Judaism - Modern Orthodox Judaism - Religious Zionism 
Yeshivas and schools - Torah Umesorah - Torah im Derech Eretz - Torah Umadda - Da'as Torah - Torah study -Orthodox Union 
Orthodox Jews - Halakha - Orthodox rabbis - Agudath Israel
Shas - United Torah Judaism - National Religious Party - HaEdah HaCharedis - Neturei Karta
Chief Rabbinate of Israel - Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah  - List of Hasidic dynasties - more...

There is another issue, which is not addressed by this template. We do need some means of accessing articles specific to Orthodox Judaism (such as Eruv); they could go in a second half of the template. --Redaktor 07:14, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Redaktor: We don't want the template to get bloated, because ultimately you could fit kol haTorah kulah into a template (which is what Yehoishophot Oliver (talk · contribs) did when he created his {{Orthodox Judaism}} template and which is one of the reasons I nominated it for deletion.) On the other hand {{Jewish life}} and {{Jewish and Israeli holidays}} already exist and they have the bulk of observances that are imporatnt to all of Yiddishkeit. In creating the template here, I am deliberately avoiding specific mitzvas, because according to Orthodoxy, ALL the 613 Mitzvot are equally important and no Orthodox Jew can dare to state that one mitzvah is more important than any other one (except Talmud Torah keneged kulam -- so that is why I have included Torah study because it covers the ENTIRE Torah and ALL the mitzvas, whereas Eruv is so complex and the tough boundaries between de'oraysas and de'rabanans up against each other, and this is not the place to introduce a topic related to Maseches Eruvin one of the toughest in Shas!) This template should remain about the Orthodox Judaism movement and world-wide community, and if any reader will bother to click on the links in it, they will find lots of links and articles and categories that are connected to that topic. The template should NOT function as an "essay" devoted to the faith of Orthodoxy and its de'oraysas, de'rabannans and minhagim with myriad observances as a gateway to the Shulkhan Arukh. It is only a type of mini "portal" or "gateway" for readers to see the major articles that are connected to Orthdodoxy and from there (inside the articles) they are welcome to click on all further articles connected to those pages. As examples, just go to the Orthodox Judaism article and count how many key articles it links to, and similarly the rest. So I think a minimalist approach is perfect and does the job just as well as a "monster template" which is just hideous and gobbles up the page. I have always disliked these monster templates, see for example, Template talk:Judaism#This template is a monstrosity! and more of the talk on that page. I will try to make a few improvements to the actual template here by adding a few headings. Hope you can see it as helpful. IZAK 07:59, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I follow what you say. I do not have in mind including everything mindlessly. However there are articles of specific relevance to Orthodox Judaism (and therefore not in {{Jewish life}} and {{Jewish and Israeli holidays}} which should be collected in one place. Anyway, your changes are a great improvement. Perhaps we could put Laws and Education near the beginning of the list.--Redaktor 08:26, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Redaktor: Thanks for the compliment about the changes. No, I do NOT think that Laws and Education should be at the head of the list because this is a template about Orthodox Judaism the MOVEMENT, and to "lay down the laws" makes it seem perculiar, as if to say, well, the Orthodox are the only ones who care about the laws and education, which while it may be partially true, is not the way to start this topic. Did you ever hear of the Malbim who was famous for giving mashalim ("analogies")? So once someone asked him how he always manages to get across his point so well, and he said his secret is that he paints the marks around the "arrow" to make it appear as if he shot the arrow into the central point. In our case, one can't jump to the central point of the "do's-and-don'ts" (i.e "THE Laws") as, on the contrary, one must first start with a general introduction about what the topic is about. Remember, Wikipedia is not a yeshiva or a Bais din, it is an encyclopedia that wants to help people understand a topic, and the best way is to go is from the general to the specific and not the other way around. I think you are confusing the need for a Template:Halachah with this template which is about that MOVEMENT called Orthodox Judaism which is about a lot more than just following this-or-that law or getting educated. And in fact it's funny you think that Eruv is such a good thing to include, because that is usually an example of how various Orthodox groups DISAGREE with each other, and then that becomes a slippery slope as you will then maybe have articles about pro- and anti-Zionism, and who knows what else. So let's just have the general topics and the MAIN articles and let the reader find out for himself and draw his own conclusions about what Orthodoxy is all about with little solid guidance from this template. IZAK 08:43, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I don't think Politics should be on the first line. Besides everything else, it is mainly Israeli politics, so it is localized. Also: Religious Zionism and Neturei Karta are not branches of Judaism (certainly not in the sense of the other branches mentioned). Maybe they can go under Organizations.--Redaktor 14:51, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Redaktor: Let me answer all your points: (1) Half of the world's Jews live in Israel. That is very significant. No-one should lose sight of that ever, and as Israel's Jewish population has grown by about one million each decade since the 1940s its proportionate share of the world's Jews also climbs accordingly. (2) In Israel, for better or worse, religion, meaning Judaism, is inextricably tied in with the political scene. Thus, the UTJ political party is the representative political party of Ashkenazi Haredi religious interests and nothing happens in the UTJ without the OK of the Israeli Gedolim's prior approval. Likewise with the Shas party which represents the interests and views of the Haredi Sephardi Jews in Israel that make up close to half of the Israeli population. Likewise the NRP is the embodiment of Religious Zionism in Israel. So that is just the way it is, that in Israel, politics and religion go together like a horse and carriage. (3) In truth, Judaism as such does not have any "branches" because there is the Torah, and the mitzvot, and the Halachah. Period. The notion of "branches" or "denominations" or "streams" is totally artificial and arbitrary and has more to do with non-Jewish ways of thinking than with anything in Judaism itself. Even the word "Orthodox" is arbitrary and actually silly because it was imposed by the Reform in Germany upon those Jews who chose not to abandon the millenia-old Torah-observant way of life of the Jewish people. But in our modern times, with people being so influenced by non-Jewish nomenclature, some labels take on great meaning and sometimes even a symbolism that goes quite far. Thus "Religious Zionism" denotes a very specific type of Orthodox Jew. one who swears allegiance to the modern State of Israel (with all its secular trappings and army) and to Orthodox Judaism, and places them on equal footings, which is something unique since the creation of the modern Jewish state. Similarly, "Neturei Karta" as a phrase and as group denotes the epicenter and chrystalization of the views and beliefs of those Haredi/Hasidic/Orthodox Jews who are 100% totally opposed to any Jewish theological blending of Zionism with the Judaism in any way whatsoever. So it's accurate to say that Religious Zionism and Neturei Karta represent the two ends of the pole on the place of Zionism in the world of Orthodox Judaism today. (4) Religious Zionism is NOT an "organization" (I cannot understand why you think so) it's an ideology. There are indeed organizations affiliated with Religious Zionism, such as the Mizrachi (Religious Zionism) movement which was and still is an organization. In the US, the Orthodox Union, the Rabbinical Council of America, and Yeshiva University are all organizations and institutions that (mostly) reflect and are aligned with the Religious Zionist ideology. Similarly the Neturei Karta are an old RELIGIOUS group that goes back to the disciples of "the Gaon of Vilna, due to Neturei Karta's origin within the Lithuanian rather than Chasidic branch of Orthodox Judaism." (See the article and later splits in the original Agudath Israel by Rabbi Amram Blau.) Neturei Karta includes different schools of thought within itself and is in essence also an ideological religious movement. There are groups that grow out of these beliefs that then become "organizations" such as Jews Against Zionism, Neturei Karta International (a USA organization), Jews Not Zionists and other such splinter organizations, but the point being that the "organizations" do not equal the ideology, which is a much more serious intellectual and theological entity -- especially as it is also closely aligned with Satmar and the influential specific anti-Zionist writings of its Rebbe, Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum: "His exposition of his belief that Zionism is prohibited by Halakha ("Jewish law") is entitled VaYoel Moshe. (See article) and it has become the present-day theological rationale of most Neturei Kartaniks. IZAK 21:16, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

IZAK You have not answered my points. Religious Zionism and Neturei Karta belong together with Aguda. They all espouse different attitudes to Zionism. you say Judaism has no branches. Your word, not mine. If you don't like it, take it out. And I still think Education comes before Politics. Yes, Israel may account for 50% of the world's Orthodox Jews, but education affects 100%.

I see you have added UK, which points to the List of Chief Rabbis, a completely marginal article. The United Synagogue and the UOHC would be much more relevant.--Redaktor 10:38, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Infobox Halacha

By the way, there already is an {{Infobox Halacha}} template and it may be worthwhile to implement it in articles that deal with specific Halachos. IZAK 10:57, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That is a different kind of template; it is not a navigational aid.--Redaktor 14:51, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but they all help in different ways. IZAK 21:16, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, we need a navigational template which includes all articles relevant to Orthodox Judaism.--Redaktor 10:38, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]