Template talk:Kings of Shang

The term "Late Shang"

Please note that the article Late Shang uses a different definition of the term than the one used in this template. As stated in the article Periodization of the Shang dynasty, there are more than one ways to periodize the Shang dynasty. And as @Kanguole (the creator of the Late Shang article) had previously mentioned elsewhere, the definition used in the "Late Shang" article specifically refers to the historical polity based on archaeology as the earliest known literate civilization in China, starting from Wu Ding. But the term as appearing in this template is used in the historiographical sense, starting from Pan Geng who is traditionally said to have moved the Shang capital to Yinxu. So the definitions used by them are not the same. I have added a note in the template for clarifications. --Wengier (talk) 01:40, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Please tag me if you're talking to me! I'll be honest, this seems like an unnecessary complexity, and it seems like we should be linking to the historical polity, since that is all of the other ruler templates do so. How does it help readers to link to two small paragraphs in a periodization article vs an entire, fleshed out article? Aza24 (talk) 12:54, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes I was largely talking to you (simply because you were the editor who made the relevant edit in the template) when I started the section, but of course everyone can join the discussion as well since it is a public talk page. I agree that it is generally a good idea to try to reduce the complexity when possible, but in order to do so it is probably better to make their meanings consistent (since the problem is that the independent article what you mentioned refers to somethings else than the currently intended meaning in the template, even if they coincidentally use the same term, and critically they will indeed affect the Shang kings to be listed under the group). There are (at least) two solutions to this, either the term can be linked to an article that refers to the Shang period since Pan Geng, or that the group under it should show Shang kings since Wu Ding (instead of Pan Geng). For the former solution, perhaps there can be a (new) article named something like "Late Shang (historiography)", as opposed to the existing article which can then be named something like "Late Shang (historical entity)"; then the term in this template can be linked to the "Late Shang (historiography)" article (instead of the "Late Shang (historical entity)" article). For the latter solution, perhaps there can be a new group named "Middle Shang" in the template, in addition to the existing groups "Predynastic Shang", "Early Shang", and "Late Shang", and in this case "Late Shang" in the template will list Shang kings starting from Wu Ding (instead of Pan Geng), consistent with the currently existing article named "Late Shang". But for this I am not quite sure about the division line between the Early Shang (aka. "Erligang period") and the Middle Shang (aka. "Xiaoshuangqiao-Huanbei period"), since such a periodization is based on archaeology rather than specific Shang kings, and based on the currently progress of the archaeology it may not be very clear about the Shang kings included in the said periods. --Wengier (talk) 15:41, 25 August 2024 (UTC)