Template talk:Kenai Peninsula Borough, Alaska

Miller landing doesn't really exist

I've moved it back into the CDP section. Miller Landing is basically in Homer, nobody but the census acknoledges it as a separate settlement. There is no precise map that I've seen but I'm fairly certain most of it is legally inside the Homer city limits. On the bayward side of East End Road the city limits extend to just past where kachemak Drive meets East End(local name, I believe it is on maps as "Homer East Road" or something like that) while the other side of the road is in Kachemak City. It's only further east of that intersection that you are back in the unincorporated area of the borough. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:06, 29 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Before I updated the templates, I did get a list of cities and CDPs recognized in the 2010 Census out of FactFinder. Miller Landing wasn't on the list. I'm still not finding any reference to it on that site. I previously questioned (at least to myself) whether it ever was a CDP. If it's actually in Homer city limits, then it obviously wouldn't be a CDP or part of one. If that's the case, either reclassify it as a neighborhood article or merge it into the main Homer article.

The other edit also brought a concern. Kachemak City and Kachemak Selo both appear in the template now as "Kachemak," but are two different places. I would say "Knik and Knik River again," but the two places are a bit closer to each other. BTW, the Old Believer community articles (except for Nikolaevsk) are possibly redundant or extraneous, as those communities are all within the Fox River CDP. The three communities at the bottom of the template may have garnered a headline or two for this and that over the years, but I question whether any of them could be considered that terribly notable, at least in comparison to Nikolaevsk, which certainly is notable in itself apart from being a CDP.

This exposes a greater problem with Alaska community articles, albeit not that major a problem. For example, we have Clear, Alaska, described as an unincorporated community even though information found in Anderson, Alaska suggests that the former article actually describes an area within Anderson city limits. There are probably a bunch of other such examples not worth dragging out in this particular talk page.RadioKAOS (talk) 20:59, 29 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Huh, I guess I just assumed it was another instance of the census imposing their own wacky definitions, such as including Lake Louise in the Anchorage Metropolitan area when it is hundreds of miles away in the middle of nowhere.

Actually, my favorite is in the Ketchikan Gateway Borough. A new CDP was created in the 2010 Census for Loring, which has been unpopulated or nearly so for about 80 or 90 years, and has a 2010 Census population of 4. OTOH, the approximately 5,000 people who live along the Tongass Highway outside of Ketchikan or Saxman city limits are not in a CDP or CDPs.RadioKAOS (talk) 22:14, 29 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The three Old Believer settlements near the Fox River are not particularly notable, but are separate and distinct named settlements, which I understand to be in the realm of things that are considered inherently notable. Kachemak City and Kachemak Selo are definenetly not the same thing. Kachemak City butts right up against the east side of Homer (and the illusory, ill-defined Miller Landing) and was founded pretty much for no other reason than to avoid being annexed by Homer. Kachemak Selo is about 25 miles east of Kachemak City, and is entirely populated by Russian Old Believers.

So, getting back to Miller Landing, look at this [1]. I'm beginning to think deletion is the right answer here, this may be essentially a flight of fancy if there is no evidence that even the census regards it as a separate area. (I actually worked on the 2000 census in Homer, but not in this particular area) The city of Homer website verifies the history of the area [2] (scroll down to the "historical milestones" section). Homer's city limits are not marked with road signs or anything, but locals would call this area "The end of Kachemak Drive near the boatyard" not "Miller Landing." If you look at this zoning map [3] (might need a magnifying glass to make it out) Miller Landing would be the brown area in the upper right, just inside the city. So yeah, I'm thinking AFD on that one. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:23, 29 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wait a sec, I got it: [4] Miller Landing was a CDP, but was deleted because it was annexed into Homer. I had forgotten that the annexation a few years back included this area. So, it used to be a CDP, but now it is just part of Homer. Not sure what that means as far as WP is concerned. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:32, 29 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You may need to check other associated URLs (such as search URLs), as that URL didn't turn up this information when I clicked on it. There is Category:Former census-designated places in Alaska, which hasn't been verified or updated. I see Yakutat City and Borough, Alaska in that category, even though Yakutat (the town itself, that is) IS a CDP. As I've already pointed out, the name "City and Borough of Yakutat" has apparently misled editors as to its actual legal status (a borough, not a city-borough). Kinda the same situation exists with Skagway (consolidation turned a city into a borough), but it's not quite as confusing in that article.RadioKAOS (talk) 22:14, 29 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Argh, I've noticed that before, the census website does not play well with Wikipedia, it seems near-impossible to link to it in any but the most general way. What I was trying to point to was an index of changes for Alaska between the 2000 and 2010 censuses. There are actually quite a few, one of them being the deletion of the Miller Landing CDP as it was annexed into Homer. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:27, 29 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm...of course, that would actually be very useful for articles. I would think the Local Boundary Commission would have the same information, if it mainly pertains to boundary changes of municipalities. I don't think Fairbanks had any annexations in that decade. The area from the failed 2002 annexation proposal became the South Van Horn CDP, from the looks of it.RadioKAOS (talk) 00:29, 30 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Does a place have to be a CDP before one can add information about it? Millers Landing, which is now included in the city of Homer, is a place that was once significant. Old timers still know of it and refer to it that way on occasion. Alaska Dave (talk) 09:41, 27 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Russian Old Believer towns you allude to are also well known places among the local community. Just because they are not CDPs should not disqualify their inclusion here. Razdolna, Kachemak Selo and Vosnesenka are related by the fact that the particular brand of Old Believer doctrine shared by them is different from that of Nikolaevsk, which is the community near Anchor Point that they split away from about 30 years ago. They are separated from one another by some distance and about 300 m of elevation and are considered individual towns by their residents and the people of Homer. Alaska Dave (talk) 09:41, 27 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Old Believer villages each have articles of their own, although they are rather sparse due to a lack of reliable sources concerning them. I did what I could with what I could find, but it's been a few years since they got any serious attention. The only thing with Miller Landing is whether or not it should have its own article. Last time it was discussied the decision was that it should be merged with the artiucle on Homer since the CDP no longer exists, but that in no way prevents anyone from adding information about it to the Homer article. Beeblebrox (talk) 15:06, 27 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, thanks for your reply. Based on the comments above I admit having felt that you [editors] were being a bit high-handed, labeling information I originally added to Wikipedia a 'flight of fancy' and heading this page Millers Landing doesn't really exist. I have been a resident of Homer for over 30 years and reckon that, in general, residents have better information about a place than non-residents. In fact, I was living near the present day Vosnesenka before the Russian community arrived in 1984. Maybe later this summer I'll visit Razdolna and Vosnesenka to try to flesh out those entries. The Old Believers are not very open to outsiders and distrust technology so I might not be able to add much. We'll see. Alaska Dave (talk) 00:31, 28 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, if you read my comments above you would see that I live here too, (for all I know we've met at some point but of course I don't go by "Beeblebrox" in my daily life) but what really matters is not what you or I may know but what reliable sources say about a subject. I suppose a more accurate section title would have been "Miller Landing is actually just part of Homer" as that was my point when I removed it from the template three years ago and initiated this discussion, and then this deletion dicsussion where it was decided that it should be merged to the article on Homer itself. I certainly wasn't trying to belittle anyone, just pointing out that nobody except the census has ever classified Miller Landing as a seperate settlement, and now not even them. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:49, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]