Template talk:IPA-arz/Archive 1

Archive 1

[1] I wonder, what is wrong with redirecting to the general IPA page, rather than the MSA/Classical Arabic specific IPA page? The general page of IPA covers all sounds of Egyptian. IPA for Arabic doesn't. Kwamikagami, do you speak Egyptian? You should know that MSA language and pronunciation isn't pronounced natively by any society in the world. It must be learned. Even after learning it, you see some regional differences in pronunciation for MSA.

What is known as Egyptian Arabic isn't just MSA with Egyptian pronunciation. It is a different grammar with different phonology. It is not as the case of American English which is actually pronounced by some English language speakers compared with English English. Not to mention the difference of grammar between Classical Arabic and all the modern languages spoken in North Africa and West Asia. The template shouldn't redirect to WP:IPA for Arabic. Redirecting Egyptian to MSA, is as redirecting French to Latin. I hope you understood me now. Thanks. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 04:34, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Which phonemes and primary allophones does Egyptian Arabic have that MSA does not? I'm not claiming that they're the same language, just that we can use the same IPA key for them, just as we do for some other closely related languages. If there are just a few, such as [g], [e], [o], then it's simpler to combine them. We don't want to start getting different conventions for EA and MSA just because the keys start evolving independently. — kwami (talk) 07:58, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for replying. Egyptian doesn't have: [dˤ, dʒ, q, θ, ð, ðˤ, lˤ, ɐ] and doesn't have short [i, u]. Final short [-i] can only appear at the end of words. There are no unstressed long vowels. There are no long vowels before two consonants or before a geminated consonant.

Egyptian has [ɾˤ] before or after the back vowel [ɑ], ex: [ˈɾˤɑːɡel] “man” vs. [ɾeɡˈɡæːlæ] “men”. [tˤ, sˤ, zˤ] can only be pronounced before or after the back vowel [ɑ]. I think that it would be better to redirect the template to WP:IPA, because it would be confusing to explain how Egyptian is pronounced in the page for MSA. I saw other more related languages sharing one IPA key page, but Egyptian and MSA just aren't that related. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 12:14, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Okay, can you give me an example of something that would be confusing? So far you've only illustrated how it might be difficult for the reader to anticipate the IPA, but we don't ask them to do that. Given a transcription of Egyptian in the IPA, what would be confusing about reading it with this key? The problem with the main IPA key is that it contains all sorts of irrelevant sounds, which make things harder to find. — kwami (talk) 18:48, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the edit. However, I think I'm going to add something to the page: [zˤ] and short [e, o]. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 22:41, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Please do.

The point of these keys is not to give the reader an understanding of the phonology of a language, but merely to allow them to make sense of the IPA used in articles for things like place and personal names. — kwami (talk) 22:46, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

[2] It is important. If you have other ways to show when pointed the cursor on it as Wikipedia:IPA for Egyptian Arabic, please do it. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 10:04, 7 November 2010 (UTC)