Template talk:Heads of state of Haiti
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Post-Earthquake Section
[edit]I'm not sure if it's necessary to have a "Post-earthquake" section of this template. Undoubtedly the earthquake is a major moment in Haiti's modern history. But unlike the other sections of the template (Post-Imperial, Post-Duvaliers) the earthquake is not an event that caused a change of the structure of the government in Haiti. DavidSSabb (talk) 14:40, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
- Yeah, I agree with you. new section are generally made when there is a huge restructuring in the country's political and administration system (e.g. under xxx colony, after independence, after democratization etc) Chongkian (talk) 02:35, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
- I am agnostic about this question, but the long period without an officially recognized head of state after the assassination of Jovenel Moïse, a time during which the de facto leader of the government has been an interim prime minister and no elections have been held—cf. Le Nouvelliste (
un pays sans chef d'état
)—should be a section. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 22:36, 8 May 2024 (UTC) - We're seeing one user edit-warring this logical change out. Perhaps they will come to the talk page and defend their view? -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 22:32, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- For the record, the Council of Ministers held the role of executive power according to the Constitution until the appointment of the Transitional Presidential Council. These are major structural changes, especially given that the Constitution only provides for 120 days for this interim role of the Council of Ministers, which was also never ratified by the legislature (which no longer exists)... -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 22:43, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- There is absolutely no edit-warring on my part (as the edit history clearly shows), but only what should be done per WP:BRD - the need to return to the last stable version, instead of just implementing the new change, which seems very illogical to me. Should we start a new template section with each new political turmoil and violent removal of head of state, with Moïse being the latest example? Then we would need a lot of them, having in mind the tumultuous Haitian history. IMHO, the only logical solution here is to overhaul the template in line with the List of heads of state of Haiti, the main article connected to this template. With such layout implemented here, each section would start with a major change of governmental system (which is something that Chongkian suggested years ago). After all, that is the widely accepted way of formatting of political templates like this one, instead of having sections like "Post-earthquake", "Post-Leader X", etc. — Sundostund mppria (talk / contribs) 01:15, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- I had a look at that page (which is more accurate concerning the interim prime ministers) and did some work on sourcing Bruno Blanchet to see by comparison if he was indeed an acting president or a de facto leader (he was not ever accorded the title president as best as I can make out after scouring Hathitrust, and it is probably correct that he is not listed as a head of state on the List of heads of state of Haiti). While the earthquake shattered infrastructure, including the palace, I'm not sure it was quite the same as the three years and counting that Haiti has been without an elected president, which is indeed a major change of governmental system (no judges, no legislature, no president). That said, it's true that the foreign influence (of the Core group) in getting Martelly elected was pretty remarkable, so I understand why this was done originally. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 01:34, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- In all honesty, I don't have a particular opinion whether or not to include Blanchet, since his term was basically a fiction before Pétion truly assumed power in the south. As for the main issue - neither the earthquake nor the killing of Moïse didn't signal a major change of governmental system, but simply (political) turmoil within the same system, which could arguably be traced to the fall of the Duvalier dynasty in 1986 - as the List of heads of state of Haiti already shows, and correctly IMHO. By portraying turmoils as changes of governmental system, we would need a new section even for the removal of Aristide in 2004, which could easily be seen as a kind of "revolution" and collapse of the then-present governmental system. It simply isn't practical, and we should implement the section division already used in the list. — Sundostund mppria (talk / contribs) 01:52, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- I had a look at that page (which is more accurate concerning the interim prime ministers) and did some work on sourcing Bruno Blanchet to see by comparison if he was indeed an acting president or a de facto leader (he was not ever accorded the title president as best as I can make out after scouring Hathitrust, and it is probably correct that he is not listed as a head of state on the List of heads of state of Haiti). While the earthquake shattered infrastructure, including the palace, I'm not sure it was quite the same as the three years and counting that Haiti has been without an elected president, which is indeed a major change of governmental system (no judges, no legislature, no president). That said, it's true that the foreign influence (of the Core group) in getting Martelly elected was pretty remarkable, so I understand why this was done originally. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 01:34, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- There is absolutely no edit-warring on my part (as the edit history clearly shows), but only what should be done per WP:BRD - the need to return to the last stable version, instead of just implementing the new change, which seems very illogical to me. Should we start a new template section with each new political turmoil and violent removal of head of state, with Moïse being the latest example? Then we would need a lot of them, having in mind the tumultuous Haitian history. IMHO, the only logical solution here is to overhaul the template in line with the List of heads of state of Haiti, the main article connected to this template. With such layout implemented here, each section would start with a major change of governmental system (which is something that Chongkian suggested years ago). After all, that is the widely accepted way of formatting of political templates like this one, instead of having sections like "Post-earthquake", "Post-Leader X", etc. — Sundostund mppria (talk / contribs) 01:15, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- I am agnostic about this question, but the long period without an officially recognized head of state after the assassination of Jovenel Moïse, a time during which the de facto leader of the government has been an interim prime minister and no elections have been held—cf. Le Nouvelliste (
- Another data-point: the constitution was revised in 2011 (adopted in 2012) and does not seem to have been followed since at least 2021. (Part of the upheaval was Moïse's plan to rewrite the constitution, as you probably know.) On this basis, there are grounds for separating, much as with the subsequent Constitutions in France (cf. Template:Presidents_of_France)-- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 02:26, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- The French example couldn't possibly be helpful here, having in mind Haitian constitutional history and the country's 22 constitutions since independence. The template would look even more chaotic and illogical than it currently is. — Sundostund mppria (talk / contribs) 03:06, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- The French example is quite helpful in fact. It shows that when major changes are made to the constitution, it's logical to delineate. Obviously not every new constitution necessitates a new line, but 2011 (first constitution since immediately after Duvalier's reign, influence of Core Group, earthquake) and 2021 (assassination, abandon of the constitution for legislative (scheduled for 2019) and general elections §) are pretty obvious logical breaking points. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 03:44, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- It isn't helpful, unfortunately - as there were many major constitutional changes in Haitian history, far more than in France, and the solution couldn't be seek in just one example. The template must have consistency in its composition, therefore it would be the best to apply here what is already present in the list of heads of state. — Sundostund mppria (talk / contribs) 04:46, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
Eras
[edit]Breaking up this list as it is now feels like OR. Why not just a standard list, a la Template:US presidents? AllegedlyHuman (talk) 19:41, 7 July 2021 (UTC)