Template talk:Ethnic nationalism

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Not done. No consensus that the suggested target is more appropriate for current use or that altering contents to match altered-title meaning would be more useful navigational aide. Scoping/inclusion standards for current one can be handled as normal editorial concern. DMacks (talk) 07:22, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Template:Ethnic nationalism → Template:Nationalism by focus — This template very clearly has as its point to list any form of nationalism, not just ethnic nationalism. It includes all of Hindu nationalism, Black nationalism and the Flemish movement. For this reason, the template should be moved to another name; one which more accurately captures the fact that it just attempts to list all nationalisms. Munci (talk) 03:24, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

• Comment this is not an article, it is a template. 76.66.194.212 (talk) 05:13, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

• Second word of reason now changed accordingly. Munci (talk) 17:23, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

• Support a move from the current title. The proposed title is a little awkward. Template:Nationalisms is more accurate/succinct but may be too easily confused with Template:Nationalism (w/o the s). — AjaxSmack 23:17, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

• This I do not oppose. The important part is improvement on the way it is currently. Munci (talk) 23:53, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose The template lists articles on nationalism based on identity with an ethnic group. The template may need clean-up to ensure that all entries fit this definition: nationalism + ethnic group. Aymatth2 (talk) 00:05, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
  • But that's still different from ethnic nationalism. One organisation from a group could be ethnic nationalist and another organisation be another sort of nationalism. If you wanted your inclusion criteria, you'd need to change it to nationalism by ethnicity. Munci (talk) 23:53, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
    • The template title is explicit and unambiguous. It links articles that describe forms of Ethnic nationalism. If a movement or school of thought fits the definition in Ethnic nationalism it belongs in the template. If it does not, it should be removed. The template lists (or should list) forms of ethnic nationalism, not specific organizations. Tamil nationalism and Basque nationalism belong. Tamil Tigers and ETA do not. Aymatth2 (talk) 03:01, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
      • No, it is ambiguous because there are multiple forms of nationalism. Basque nationalists are not necessarily ethnic nationalists. They can be civic nationalist or economic nationalist or banal nationalist. Munci (talk) 17:57, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
    • The idea of this template is to bring together articles on nationalistic beliefs where the nation is defined in terms of ethnicity: common language, common culture and a tradition of a common ancestry. The entries in the template should be examples of the general concept described in "Ethnic nationalism". If Basque nationalism does not fit, and I can see that it is an umbrella term that may include some groups who are not exactly ethnic nationalists, it should be removed from the template. Introducing a broader name like "Nationalism by focus" invites expansion into a huge template that includes all examples of any type of nationalism defined in Template:Nationalism. It would become a battleground for warring editors. Better to keep it narrow, using the clear definition provided by the title article. Aymatth2 (talk) 19:55, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
      • But there is no insert-ethnicity-here nationalism which, by definition, would fit on a template entitled 'Ethnic Nationalism'. If the template would be called 'Ethnic Nationalism', the only reasonable content is groups that have espoused such an ideology and articles relating to their ideas. If you want to keep it narrow but still with similar content, you'd have to go for 'Nationalism by Ethnicity'. Munci (talk) 00:04, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
    • I am missing your point. All the articles are (or should be) about forms of Ethnic nationalism. They have the same main concepts or principles, but applied to different ethnicities. Should the title be Ethnic nationalisms? "Nationalism by Ethnicity" does not work for me, because it implies the different types of nationalistic beliefs held by each ethnic group, many of which may not be ethnic nationalist beliefs. Which of the many forms of nationalism do Basques subscribe to? Aymatth2 (talk) 06:10, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

"Which of the many forms of nationalism do Basques subscribe to?" That's exactly the point. There's not any form nationalism that the Basque nationalists as a whole subscribe to. Not ethnic nationalism, not any other sort. This template as it is could give the impression otherwise. Munci (talk) 21:10, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

• Right. "Nationalism by Ethnicity" does not work. A Tamil could subscribe to Tamil nationalism, which is a form of ethnic nationalism, but many Tamils subscribe to Indian nationalism or Hindu nationalism, and maybe some who have moved to the USA subscribe to American nationalism or Queer nationalism. The entry for Tamils would have to list these and presumably many more. It doesn't work. Maybe the title could be "Examples of ethnic nationalism"? But to me, "examples" is implicit in the title of any template like this. Aymatth2 (talk) 13:49, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
  • It strikes me that maybe your concern is with the articles as much as with the template. The article on Tamil nationalism describes a specific form of nationalism based on the Tamil ethnic group. It does not describe all forms of nationalism held by Tamils. Many Tamils do not subscribe to the form of nationalism described in the article. Aymatth2 (talk) 14:00, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
  • No, Tamil nationalism is not necessarily a form of ethnic nationalism. Tamils may be nationalist and relate that nationalism to their being Tamil without being ethnic nationalist. They may instead be another sort of nationalist in relation to their being Tamil. That is the problem. Currently, the template title gives the false impression that all Tamil nationalists are ethnic nationalists which is just not necessarily the case. Munci (talk) 15:09, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
    • I have added a note to the template pointing that out. Aymatth2 (talk) 15:43, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Irrelevant entries

Many nationalisms listed here are precisely NON ethnic, e.g. Iraqi nationalism, which encompasses all ethnic groups in Iraq under a State patriotism. --Minorities observer (talk) 11:03, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Attention

The classification of so-called "ethnic nationalism" and "civic nationalism"(or say the others), though widely accepted, can be west-centred due to historical reasons. Such division was raised up about 1930s, when Nazi & Soviet in the east. The oriental and eastern world was viewed negatively while some negative research such as the topics of oriental despotism was coined. Hans Kohn, who gave this idea, often refer civic nationalism as good, Western, while the other, bad, non-Western. My advice is to give a more detailed specific classification in this template, so I also support of ideas like nationalism by focus. OuiOK (talk) 13:21, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

This template needs to be purged

A huge number of entries here are non-ethnic nationalisms, red links, redirects and articles that aren't even about nationalism that need to be removed. I'd do it myself but I'm not entirely sure of the inclusion criteria. Charles Essie (talk) 14:37, 10 March 2024 (UTC)