This is an archive of past discussions about Template:BLP. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
I really don't see the benefit of adding the image. It seems rather unnecessary and unprofessional, and also could be taken to presume things about the subject - that the subject is an adult, that the subject can stand up, etc. --PhilosophusT22:27, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
It's the symbol for a human being, the one that was sent into space. I think it emphasized the point of the tag rather nicely, so I'd like to put it back. SlimVirgin(talk)22:32, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Is it really necessary to have a sketch of two naked bodies? Because they are nude, the picture implies that the article might somehow be about human physiology; unless the article is about a porn star, a person's life takes place mostly in the mind, and usually fully clothed. If a picture is necessary at all (is it?), a better picture would be a picture of faces, which connotes more of the person rather than the human body. —Centrx→talk • 23:48, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
It's the NASA image of human beings that was sent into space. It's known universally and therefore I felt it was appropriate. The message of the tag is "When you write an article about a living person, remember you're dealing with a human being." SlimVirgin(talk)23:53, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes. But it was about what humans look like, directed toward another type of life form, not about biographies and living people. The image just doesn't seem related to the tag, and looks bizarre. The whole plaque really wasn't designed for normal human use, with the hyperfine structure based units and so on. The faces idea might be more appropriate if one wants to emphasize that one is dealing with an article about a real person with feelings. --PhilosophusT00:15, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
The image is gratuitous, and the template is too bulky as it is. Some of these talk pages suffer from an incredible amount of template clutter. --Michael Snow17:12, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree that there are too many templates, but this is an important one that editors and subjects of bios have to see, so it needs to stand out. SlimVirgin(talk)18:25, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
I was actually in the process of attempting to find an image when SlimVirgin beat me to it. I thought it was great. Since so many are objecting, how about another image that somehow fits the message, something related to kindness and the Golden Rule? An image is an important eye-catcher. Without it the text box just gets drowned among all the other text on a page. Is there somewhere here at Wikipedia where one can check out all the images that are already approved for use here? -- Fyslee17:25, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
I love it! That's precisely the idea we need to convey, and the image is a nice eye catcher. I have tried to make it longer again, so it is the same length as the other template. Now the image is slightly off-center (vertically). I don't know how to fix that. There should be some standard formatting requirements for templates. -- Fyslee09:24, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Maybe the image should be made smaller, to the same size as the other image (in the other template). -- Fyslee09:31, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Another problem, at list in my browser (XP6) the image and text aren't stable, the text being partially covered by the image. Updating the page fixes it, but that shouldn't be necessary. I don't know enough about HTML to fix that. -- Fyslee17:27, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
My browser has the same problem, the picture obscures the text until I refresh the page. It does this every time, even after I clear the cache. BTW, I really liked the Pioneer people-pic - very eye-catching and relevant to the issue (there are living people here!) :_ Dreadlocke18:42, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I liked it too, but for some reason others didn't, so Fyslee thought of the handshake instead. I think it shouldn't be so long and thin, because that causes it to merge in with the other tags, and it needs to stand out, so I adjusted it so that the first line ends with "biographies of living persons." Fyslee and Dreadlocke, do you still see the image overlap thing with it at this size? SlimVirgin(talk)21:15, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Oddly, it was still overlapping, but I adjusted it a bit according to the html code that was in the Pioneer edit, which had good spacing. It looks ok from my browser now. Dreadlocke02:44, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
The size of the image was tolerable, as long as it doesn't inflate the template vertically to a size beyond what the text alone would produce. However, the image chosen turns out to have been not public domain, but a copyrighted stock photo, so it's not allowed. --Michael Snow00:59, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
And other people objected to it, pointing out a variety of implications that detract from the point this template tries to make. I realize people want to slap a picture on every little template for some reason, but the choices are often poorly suited to illustrate the message. The image is a symbol of human form, perhaps, but that's not really what the template is getting at. The salient issue is that these people are living, which is relegated to the background or not apparent at all from the pictures chosen so far (a drawing, alive?). A quick way to illustrate the concept isn't necessarily easy, but something like a newborn baby would come a lot closer to getting the point across, I think. Those who see many of our complaints from affected parties might also sympathize with the implication that there's a lot of unwarranted wailing involved. --Michael Snow04:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
The Sistine fresco certainly fits with the point, although it requires a particular cultural understanding to recognize. I'd guess some people would be disturbed by the religious aspect of the image, just as others didn't like the frank nudity of the Pioneer plaque. Rather than offend people unnecessarily, I'd go with the two girls. Youthfulness is a decent way to communicate being alive, so that's probably the best choice of those I've seen so far. --Michael Snow16:41, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I really don't like the handshake image. I didn't notice whatever images were there before, so no opinion about those. Phr (talk) 07:35, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Oh, that Pioneer image. That would have been fine. Eliminating the image is also fine, I don't really see the need for one. I had no idea there had been a controversy, I only discovered it by visiting this page to gripe about the handshake picture. Phr (talk) 07:39, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Proposal
I just added a parameter to {{WPBiography}} where someone can add living=yes and the text of the BLP template appears. What do you think? Incorporates it into a talk template that will be there anyway plus article can now be added to our category of living persons. See Lance Armstrong for an example. plange01:03, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I do like it but a downside is that it doesn't stand out as much in comparison to using the blp template. I am afraid many people won't read all the four paragraphs of the template (from looking at the Lance Armstrong example. Maybe place it to the top of the template instead of the bottom? Garion96(talk)01:58, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Also, I did this before I saw the discussion here, so didn't see the dialog about images, so let me know if you think it should be switch. I thought the caution symbol was appropriate, but am completely open to changing it...plange02:15, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Nope, it adds the text into the Project banner.... Seems cleaner and more efficient? all someone has to do is add living=yes to the existing project tag plange19:22, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
OK, will try something a little different-- am not a wiz with parser functions so not sure if I can pull it off but will give it the ol' college try! Am thinking perhaps having a nice header in bold that says Biography of a living person and then this disclaimer and then a line that goes under it, sort of like it's separate from the project banner messaging, etc...plange22:30, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
FoN, what is the problem with the formatting? Every time you change it, people complain about image overlap problems. This is the size and format that seemed to fix it. SlimVirgin(talk)20:06, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
I put the image in a separate table cell. I don't see how it's possible for it to be overlapping the text. Floating the image within the same cell could cause the last line of the text to appear underneath the image, which should be avoided.
Hmm... I knew internet explorer was bad, but not that bad... Should look okay now. —freak(talk) 20:56, Jul. 31, 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, FoN. It looks fine for me, but then it always did. Others were saying there was an overlap, so hopefully they can say whether they still see it. SlimVirgin(talk)20:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Looks good again, aligned well, no overlapping, and the picture looks excellent - although I still prefer SlimVirgin's Pioneer-People-Pic.. :) Dreadlocke21:50, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Please consider making it slightly longer, so it is the same length as other templates, for example here. Otherwise it looks fine. -- Fyslee22:31, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
It's too long and thin like that and doesn't stand out enough. It would be really nice if people could leave it alone now. :-) SlimVirgin(talk)22:32, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
I fully agree. I should have specified that I just meant the idea of adding a color, and chose that example of where it was tried. This color code should produce a pleasant green, the color we see when we see changes in the edit history: CCFFCC I'll try it. -- Fyslee19:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I think the current handshake image is rather distracting. I liked the Pioneer image but I'm also fine with no image at all. Haukur09:23, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I also think the hand image is poor and could be perceived to have connotations of collaborating with the subject- the girl image seems to be the most neutral. Arniep14:33, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, <joking class="i_hope">how about the old Vancouver Skybridge photo</joking>. —freak(talk) 15:50, Aug. 1, 2006 (UTC)
I think the handshake image is excellent, myself. A handshake is a symbol of trustworthiness, which is why it gets used by banks and insurance companies. It emphasizes that we are fair dealers and should behave politely, especially with a living subject. A static person icon could be acceptable, but I don't think it would create the same impression. --Dhartung | Talk19:43, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
It also emphasises that we are white males who like to shake hands. Is that what's intended? I think it's a nonsense graphic added for lack of anything better. A biography has nothing to do with a shaking hands. A handshake isn't a symbol of trustworthiness (albeit, it may be a demonstrator to promote trust by not carrying weapons) -- it's generally a symbol of greeting or agreement.--LeflymanTalk06:23, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, that's precisely the problem, that handshake looks like two white male bankers or insurance executives who have just completed a rapacious deal to repossess every car in South America, or something like that. It creeps me out. There's tons of "people" and "people icon" pictures on commons, why not just use one? Here's a few that I like but there's plenty more. The "scribe" and "cowboy" ones could be cropped to remove most of the background.
I can't recall whether my reaction was bcz of some specific article that i saw the little-girls version in, or bcz of seeing it while i was listening to a news report about the Jon-Benet Ramsey suspect's EMails about his admiration for her. In any case, we do have article(s) on him, and other living people for which the little-girls version will be tasteless. --Jerzy•t05:20, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand what a b/w picture of two girls has to do with biographies of living persons. I noticed that this picture was taken in 1943. It's unclear who these girls are or if they are still living people. A picture of a long dead pioneer would be equally inappropriate as would the picture of Adam as this is not a theology template. What was wrong with the original icon? (P.S. I found the Lorenzo Lamas picture particularly amusing!) -- Malber (talk • contribs) 13:18, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Who cares what Jimbo says?
What matters is what the policy is. Why do we need that link to Jimbo's email in the Template? It does not make the policy any more forceful. It is policy. Period. -- 67.116.253.2209:54, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
More wording issues
The reason I prefer [6] to [7] is that the former seems more inviting and accessible to non-Wikipedians. Saying that you should edit is different from saying that an editor should edit. Consider the use case of people unfamiliar with wikis who come upon a libellous article about themselves. They may take "editor" to mean a traditional managing editor. Going into technicalities about things such as the WP:3RR seems distracting for the same reason. The template prominently links to the policy, it doesn't need to summarize it at length. Haukur21:30, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
This is turning into the template from hell. We can't agree on wording, color, size, shape, or image. :-) I do agree with the above, though. I find the recent one too aggressive. SlimVirgin(talk)21:33, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, we agree it's an important template :) And I agree with you for a change - feels like we've been at odds too often lately. Haukur21:50, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Aargh, I should've known that there'd be something like this for a template that changed that much so quickly. I've made some changes to them, hopefully not [irritating] too many people ;D. 68.39.174.23803:14, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I occurs to me that it might do us well to distinguish between a regular biography and one where the story deals with ongoing litigation (where the Foundation is not a party, since I assume that WP:OFFICE takes over then). -- 67.119.193.16900:39, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
An extra template or a specialization of this one that highlights the fact that an active legal case (or likely appeals) are still in play and that additional caution is advisable. Might as well include both civil and criminal. No need for immune people like U.S. Presidents, but if the article is going to, say, report on such active legal cases, then we can keep an eye of such even more closely. -- 67.121.114.8208:27, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Should the template warn only against poorly-sourced negative material, or should it be broader in connotation? Is positive information to be accepted more leniently? That seems like bad policy to me. --Eyrian00:57, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, I understand the legal necessity for preventing false, negative information. However, It was merely an idea that the template would warn against all unsourced information. --Eyrian14:06, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
We have this situation now where biographies of controversial people (e.g. major politicians) are turning into hagiographies. The necessity of getting rid of unsourced negative stuff is obvious; but it's extremely difficult to also get rid of unsourced positive stuff and have anything left. The result is the NPOV of these articles is getting clobbered. Daniel Brandt is (or was; I haven't looked at it lately) an extremely closely sourced bio that I like to cite as an example, but the amount of work it took to do it must have been insane. I don't have any answer to this tension between BLP and NPOV. And now we've got this arbcom decision coming (Hunger Project) that currently proposes to extend the BLP principles to businesses as well as people. So I guess Wikipedia will turn out to be an advertising service after all. Wikipedia is doomed, film at 11. Phr (talk) 12:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Any article
I propose a change (shown) to the following sentence in the template:
"Specifically, unsourced or poorly sourced negative material about living persons should not be posted to thisany article or its talk page(s)."
Justification for this change is found in the very beginning of the policy's article:
"These principles also apply to biographical material about living persons in other articles."
I don't have a problem since it matches the policy you quote. However, I would be concerned if someone felt it necessary (or used a bot) to add this template to every talk page of every article that merely mentions a living person. Perhaps there should be guidelines on when it is useful to use this template. Colin°Talk10:49, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Colin, you've got a good point there. The template should continue to be used as it normally is used - only on biography talk pages. But...it might be a good idea to emphasize the point better in the article. I'll comment there as well. -- Fyslee10:56, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Ah. There is already a guideline on the policy page:
Template:Blp may be added to the talk pages of biographies of living persons so that editors and readers, including subjects, are alerted to this policy.
Maybe there should be a reminder at the top of this talk page, to help people know what the template is for and when to use it? Colin°Talk11:04, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Lists of people
In addition to biographical articles, should lists of people use this template? See Lists (stand-alone lists) - Lists of people. Obviously lists of dead people don't count. What about lists where the criteria is complimentary or neutral (lists of Olympic gold medal winners, or Prime Ministers, for example)? Colin°Talk12:17, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I think all lists, regardless of their nature, with a significant number (say, more than 20-30%) of living people included should have the template in the talk page. It may only serve as a reminder, though. -- RuneWelsh | ταλκ15:09, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Transcluding the text?
Was wondering if we could put the text of the template on another page and transclude it into this template and {{WPBiography}}? Currently we're transcluding {{blp}} directly since the language was changing so often, but we're getting complaints that our template is too big. I'd like to go back to the version our bio tag had a couple of days ago where it was prominently on top, but nice and compact. Is this cool? I can make the page with the text, just let me know plange00:57, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
I didn't think so-- Do you know for sure? Even if it was, our tag was transcluding the BLP template anyway so changing it from one transclusion to another shouldn't be worse....plange14:48, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
No, I don't know anything technical for sure. :-D What's the benefit of doing it that way i.e. of having the text on a separate page? SlimVirgin(talk)14:57, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
No, it wouldn't happen. Doing it this way (my idea IIRC) allows both templates to use exactly the same text, but to go their own way on formatting. Note: {{Blp}} will hardly ever be used on a standalone basis anyway, as most living person articles are now tagged with {{WPBiography|living=yes}} and within the next few days they all* will be. *Apart from the newest articles and any where editors have detagged, of course.
Strain on the servers: Minimal, and Mediawiki has page (object) caching. Not worth worrying about I'd say (but I'm not a developer). --kingboyk13:31, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I've added the template (noinclude) to Category:WikiProject Biography to aid with navigation for editors who are interested in Biography. I hope this isn't controversial and that we can agree that WikiProject Biography should be the central meeting point for such issues, but if you don't agree please revert and/or discuss.
I've also added a note that {{WPBiography}} is generally the preferred template, because it displays the same message as {{Blp}} and then some. The note might need a little copyediting.
Starting a new thread as I can't find where this was last discussed.
As you've probably noticed, I've been tagging living persons biographies with {{WPBiography}}, which includes the warning message from this template. Until I added a FAQ about it, I was getting at least one message a day from concerned editors who thought that the message meant there was something wrong with their article. Might the warning be reworded, to make it clear that it's a statement of general policy and not necessarily indicative of problems in the article to which the notice is attached? --kingboyk13:21, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Since the text is now transcluded into well over 100,000 talk pages, and I can't see any reason why non-admins should need to edit it, should it be protected or at least semi-protected? Any changes ought to be discussed here first, and there are plenty of admins about who can update the text (myself included). Note that I propose protecting only {{Blp/BLPtext}} and not {{Blp}} (which is just formatting, and mostly superceded by {{WPBiography}}). --kingboyk18:02, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Protection is not warranted at this time. The page has had some 45 edits this month, none of them vandalism. Any vandalism would be quickly reverted and only affect people browsing talk pages (i.e. mostly editors rather than innocent passerby). Haukur20:37, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Except that changes to that template will slow down WP as it will queue up the changes in their thingamajig. Kinboyk can explain it better. It's now on 100K pages....plange20:53, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
The job queue. That's only the case if a link/transclusion/category is changed (the link tables have to be updated). Editing of simple text isn't really an issue in that regard. --kingboyk20:56, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Even if there are only a few edits, it's still a high risk template, and aren't high risk templates generally protected? Hbdragon8822:17, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
The current text of the template says unsourced materials must be removed immediately. Several times I included some materials which I knew from personal contact or some now unavailable source. Sometimes I also found it in reliable source, which is however surely temporary and unsuitable for citing. No information of this kind were negative, but without them the articles would be stubs at last.
I understand the policy of avoiding extensive use of unsourced materials, but I would be rather against demanding their immediate removal if they are not controversial - rather they should be marked with the "citation needed" note. Okino15:02, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
The correct spelling is "Libelous", with one "L". The rule is that the final consonant should be doubled, only if when pronounced, the accent is on the final syllable. With "Libel", the accent is on the first syllable, so the final consonant should not be doubled. This also makes it consistent with the spelling at Slander and libel, Webster's dictionary, and is the most common usage on Wikipedia [8]. There seems to be some indication that "libellous" is a valid UK spelling, but the single "L" version outnumbers it, 10 to 1. --Elonka20:44, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't see any need to change a valid spelling, and this is an international site. What do other people think? --kingboyk12:16, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Both are valid. The MoS says spellings should be changed only when there's a reason to do so and I don't see that it makes any difference here. SlimVirgin(talk)22:02, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Well there's likely to be a group of edits made shortly and there's no reason to not follow Wikipedia's norm of a 10 to 1 ratio of one spelling over the other. (→Netscott)22:10, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
"Libellous" (670,000 hits) is by far the least common spelling. "Libelous" would be better (3,450,000 hits). It is also the spelling used in the article itself. Since Wikipedia has such a great impact on knowledge and spelling, we should attempt to make sure we do things in the best, and in this case the most common, manner. Erroneous (or less preferable) spellings or misleading expressions should be corrected and pointed out throughout Wikipedia, not treated as if they are inconsequential. -- Fyslee12:20, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
I have since learned that "libellous" is the British version, and "libelous" is the American one. Since Wikipedia policy allows both spellings, and articles that are somehow British-related are allowed to use British spellings, those articles should be spared, while other articles can be changed to the more common spelling. -- Fyslee10:38, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Isn't the most common spelling generally the American one? Seems that is like saying we cannot choose between A and B, but B is more popular, so we take that... HichamVanborm21:54, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Edit protected
{{editprotected}}
The current wording could do for a slight tweak:
Current wording:
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons policy as it directly concerns one or more living people. Unsourced or poorly sourced, potentially libellous material must be removed immediately. The three-revert rule does not apply to such removals.
Tweaked wording:
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons policy as content in it directly concerns one or more living people. Unsourced or poorly sourced, potentially libellous material must be removed immediately. The three-revert rule does not apply to such removals.
Just my 2 cents, but I think that "it directly concerns one or more living people" says the same as "as content in it directly concerns one or more living people" albeit more eloquently. My take is to leave it as is. As with the above, I'd welcome comments from other editors before deciding whether to change the text or not. (I've disabled {{editprotected}} as this page is on my watchlist and I'll deal with it if there's consensus to change). --kingboyk12:19, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
It would be good to add the noticeboard to the template to give editors a place to turn to in the event that problems arise.
Like so:
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons policy as content in it directly concerns one or more living people. Unsourced or poorly sourced, potentially libellous material must be removed immediately. The three-revert rule does not apply to such removals. Concerns relative to this policy can be addressed on the biographies noticeboard.
You don't need to show me the BOLD link, you think I got adminship without knowing about that page?! :) The problem is, this is a policy from on high, and I had no involvement with setting it up. I don't feel comfortable changing the wording based on whether I think it's an improvement or not. I'd prefer to see consensus and then I can blame you lot! :P (Side note, the job queue is currently over 500,000 so any changes won't take effect for several hours anyway. Updating the link tables for over 100,000 articles takes quite a long time). --kingboyk18:58, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I see, well as an editor who previously worked on this template in an unbridled fashion you perhaps can understand why I take the stance that I do. (→Netscott)19:01, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
You can edit the Blp template as much as you like, it's only the text that's locked. All I'm asking for is 2 other editors to support the change, that's not much to ask for a change to text which is transcluded over 100,000 times. Non-negotiable so go ask another admin or wait until some supporters have shown up. --kingboyk19:03, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Let's try a different approach. This seems like a reasonable enough addition, albeit one that will add to the length of the notice. Anybody have any objections to it's addition? --kingboyk12:59, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
My abiding opposition to BLP and the concomitant template notwithstanding, it occurs to me that the comma that follows poorly sourced ought to be removed; insofar as the sourcing qualifier is restrictive, it ought not to be set off (to be sure, the formulation absent a comma seems unwieldly, but it is quite right to say Unsourced or poorly sourced potentially libellous material). Do others concur? Joe03:40, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
The presence and placing of commas affects the meaning. Right now libelous material is allowable if its well-sourced, which makes the existence of BLP policy toothless and somewhat meaningless. Here's what should be there:
"Unsourced or poorly sourced, and especially potentially libellous, material ...."
This emphasizes that potentially libelous material isn't allowed here. Such matters must be settled between the involved parties in a court of law, not be exposed and discussed here at Wikipedia. Trial results can of course be discussed, but that's after the fact, and should be sourced from third parties. -- Fyslee06:42, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Doesn't that change the meaning a little bit? It's saying that any poorly sourced material can be removed without regard to 3RR whether or not potentially libellous? Perhaps we need something like "Potentially libellous material must be removed unless..." (some words describing under what circumstances it is allowed, valid sources etc). In a way that would be better, as I think the current wording is in danger of neutering Wikipedia. --kingboyk08:14, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, it does, and that was my point, as explained above. I believe the sentence contains two elements that should be dealt with independently, even though related:
Poor sourcing
Potentially libelous content
Here's the current history of this sentence:
Was:
"Unsourced or poorly sourced, potentially libellous material ..."
"Unsourced or poorly sourced potentially libellous material ..."
My suggestion:
"Unsourced or poorly sourced, and especially potentially libellous, material ...."
I believe that all libelous material, whether potential or not, should be kept out of Wikipedia, unless extremely well-sourced with the highest quality sources available. If such sources can be found, then it has already been proven to be true and it isn't libelous anymore, but is proven fact, which just makes it very negative material that can be included. Until a court or reliable third party source makes that decision, it's original research and an editor pushing a libelous opinion designed to damage the subject involved, which is very unwikipedian, but is a common occurrence here.
I believe this position is in keeping with the spirit embodied in this Jimbo Wales' quote:
"Real people are involved, and they can be hurt by your words. We are not tabloid journalism, we are an encyclopedia." [1]
We simply need to place more emphasis on keeping potentially libelous material out of Wikipedia, and we can do that by strategically placing the comma. -- Fyslee 12:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't think this is quite right. We of course want everything in every article to be reliably sourced, but we surely do not remove every unsourced fact from every article. With the comma at present, the phrase means to suggest that unsourced or poorly sourced material must be removed, and I don't think that's what we mean. Only that information that is both poorly sourced and potentially libellous (to be sure, as Fyslee notes, one can generally say that that which is sourced is necessarily not libellous, but that's certainly not something about which we can be categorically sure) is, consistent with BLP, to be removed; the present version does not convey the necessary duality. Although I'm not certain why the commaless formulation was insufficiently clear (I gather that the objection is as to its not prominently emphasizing the concern as to libellous material), I would imagine that a formulation superior to that at present might be Potentially libellous material that is not properly sourced. The modifier in the present version, in any case, is not properly placed. Joe15:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
That was my feeling too - that we increase the scope of what must be removed regardless of 3RR beyond just the libellous to anything which is unsourced. "Potentially libellous material that is not properly sourced" is better, but perhaps not tough enough. Anyone else care to comment? --kingboyk16:03, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
I think the key to this is to be found in this heading:
"Negative material, especially if potentially libelous, must be removed immediately if it is unsourced or poorly sourced."
This makes it clear that poorly sourced negative material must be removed, but it places more emphasis on potentially libelous material. They should both be removed, but potentially libelous stuff should disappear fastest....;-) -- Fyslee19:30, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Right now clicking on the word "libellous" takes you to the rather thorough article on libel. Someone who is just adding stuff isn't going to take the time to look up the definition there. I propose that a brief one-line definition of libel be added to the BLP. Something like "Libel: an untrue or unproven statement that may cause defamation of an individual" or something like that (the wording would have to be worked on, or perhaps lifted from the libel article). I just think asking editors to go off-page might be a bit less efficient than simply stating out right that this is what we mean by libel. Just a thought. Otherwise I think it's a good idea, although still open to interpretation in terms of what constitutes a "poor source". 23skidoo06:10, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
The image should have some context relating to biographies of living people. A handshake, two girls, or a long dead pioneer do not. Someone earlier on this talk page mentioned that the image of two girls might not look appropriate on talk pages of murderers of children. This is an excellent example why the current image probably is not the best choice. A generic icon would be better. -- Malber (talk • contribs) 16:37, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
It's a 'generic icon' for one. But I guess people would object (and already have) over the fact that it's nude. I would prefer an image at least where you can't identify the people in it. The chance is small but if one of the girls (women now) on this picture would ever use wikipedia, see might be (unpleasantly) surprised to see her face is used on 100.000(?) talk articles. Garion96(talk)20:29, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I too don't like the "two girls" image. Both for technical and aesthetic reasons. The technical reasons is that it looks awful at thumbnail size. Anything that is intentionally going to be used at thumbnail size should be altered to reflect that. At the moment, the picture works well when you se it full size, but at thumbnail size it just looks creepy. The girl on the left looks like she is upset about something, while the girl on the right looks like she has just spotted something. And the hand on the shoulder looks strange as well. This is just a classic case of a picture being used outside of its original context. It quite clearly was never intended to do anything other than illustrate two girls at an inter-racial summer camp (or something).
But I've also been told that I should suggest something to replace it. So I thought an image of a heart would be a good idea (all living people have hearts, right?). The best thing I could find at the moment is Image:Heart1.PNG.
The number and the Xs could be removed, or even replaced with the letters B - L - P? But maybe someone can come up with something better. In any case, I suggest a heart icon is used as the image on this template. Carcharoth23:53, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Ooh, I didn't know we had a gallery tag. Anyway, let's put the others suggestion here (not mine), the "Pioneer" image. I like it, but I'm not sure it's appropriate: [removed image to gallery below]
Anyone else got any suggestions? --kingboyk09:56, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, below is how to use the gallery feature properly! :-) See Wikipedia:Facebook for an example of how gallery tags are used. There are also some proper enctclopedia galleries around somewhere - have a look at some articles on Renaisance artists for examples of their works collected in galleries. Carcharoth18:53, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
None of the images call forth the notion of the sort of people likely to have biographies in Wikipedia. Maybe some sort of group scene would do it. Also desirable is for the image to call forth some sort of notion that you should be careful in dealing with biographies of living people. Lou Sander03:28, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Do you seriously think any image is likely to be able to "call forth the notion of the sort of [living] people likely to have biographies in Wikipedia"? Wikipedia is too broad for that. Which is why I think a generic heart image is the best of the lot, and waiting around for something better would not help. And wanting the image to shout "be careful - don't libel people"? Well, that is even more unlikely to happen. In fact, just dropping the idea of an image altogether might be best. A symbolic logo, word, or group of letters would be better than a random picture of two girls that is now plastered over 10s of 1000s of pages for no real good reason. Carcharoth09:22, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Would you believe I'd completely missed that! :-) Anyway, even if heart is not completely humanly generic, what can be used to symbolise humans and living? I'd still favour some abstract design being used, rather than a picture of two girls who may still be alive and not be happy about their picture being used in this way (I know, they can't do anything about it, but that goes against the spirit of the whole BLP project). Carcharoth23:01, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Please, change this "Two Girls" abomination to anything: Pioneer plaque, fine, though I think for a Biography Project it would be better to use an image of an old, leather-bound book with some press guilding and some silhouette that would offend no one: Beethoven's, Newton's, Aristotle's, you name it. I find "Two Girls" image so offensive that I am ready to blow the top and start a vandal war over it, and that's not really in my character. The problem is, this image is a racially motivated imposition of certain ideology that I despise. Human beings should be regarded strictly on their individual merits, without classifying them by race. Race-based political correctness is a racism, painful to anybody who has been persecuted on the basis of their ethnicity -- inverted racism, granted, but still a racism. Like those questions about your race in government's questionnaires. If they are skin-color blind, why do they care what my race is? The same with this "Two Girls" photograph. It is a real torture to me, to see it on the talk page dedicated to my favorite writer. Please, remove it ASAP!Arvin Sloane07:40, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps we should just remove the image all together until a suitable one is found? It's clearly disliked by a lot of people (and I can't say I like it much either). --kingboyk08:19, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Sigh, yes, though I cannot wait for the future when a picture like this is just what it is -- two girls. As Freud said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. --plange16:47, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
The instigator of the policy[1], famous in these parts, and alive and well ;)
I suggest using a generic icon (such as a heart icon) that does not depict potentially living people (ie. not the "two girls" picture). This will avoid potential problems that would be embarassing for a project trying to avoid that sort of problem! Also, a generic image avoids accusations of the image representing only certain types of people (children, white, males, western, etc). A heart icon is neutral and suitable for representing living people (all living people have hearts). Carcharoth22:14, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
And how does anyone know that these two girls are alive? Like I wrote somewhere else, use George W. Bush as an "icon" for a living person. Arguably the world's best known specmen of one, and there's plenty of PD images of the guy out there. He'd be my choice for a "living person". Peter196816:03, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Please Gamaliel, that smacks of errant political correctness and there is far too much tripping over one's feet to avoid offence on WP now. I'll argue till the cows come home and beyond that George W. is the world's most recognisable living person. Peter196808:15, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
I like the Bush idea. That he IS "polarizing" to some editors makes his image a particularly good one for the BLP logo: a central principle of BLP is that editors need to restrain themselves when commenting on negative aspects of living persons. A neutral image doesn't do much to advance this principle. Lou Sander16:30, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Why not both Bush and Clinton? Just head-shots, separated perhaps by a diagonal line (upper right to lower left corners.) I agree that polarizing figures can make people more sensitive. John Broughton17:05, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
As above, I think the image is causing sufficient bother - and finding a replacement sufficiently difficult - to remove the image altogether until a better one is found. I've removed the image from {{Blp}}. If folks think it looks OK (and I do) I'll remove it from the higher-exposure {{WPBiography}} too. --kingboyk16:31, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Does this image cause sufficient bother among people with sane, legitimate objections or are we just paying too much attention to the complaints of people who yell about "inverse racism"? Gamaliel16:40, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
How am I supposed to answer that? I'm just trying to keep people happy (not that it's possible to please everybody, of course). People disliking the image==templates getting removed from talk pages==not good for the WikiProject :) --kingboyk17:20, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
We should try to please a reasonable amount of reasonable editors. The complaints of kooks should be ignored, though. And if they persist in removing the templates we should treat them like vandals. Gamaliel17:35, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
There are legitimate complaints against the use of the "two girls" image. Please read 'all of the above discussions, rather than focus on one aaspect of the discussion. Though for what it is worth, I don't see the point of trying to represent all ethnicities in one picture. Or even one or two. That is just silly. And there is the valid point that the image was taken at an "inter-racial" camp - which in itself, IMO, makes the image too sensitive to use on such a widespread template. My opinion, stated below, is that even having a living person on the template is not ideal: (a) they will eventually die and the logo will need updating - why store up that hassle for future editors; (b) the widespread use of this template makes even use of free images somewhat suspect. The use of this image is more like using someone's picture in an advertising campaign, as a symbol of something. IMO, Bush and others would have legitimate reason to object to their image being used in this way. Just because an image is free, doesn't mean that it can be used indiscriminately for any use at all. IMO, a generic artwork logo is the only safe way to go. Carcharoth11:36, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
I still prefer the Pioneer one, but I like the idea of an image of a crowd. I just prefer one where you can't identify a specific person. It might be weird if you are one of those and you find your own face on 115,000-120,000 (thanks Kingboy) articles. Garion96(talk)02:01, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
That will look awful at thumbnail size (see example at right - in the Blp template, the picture was displayed at 100px size). Remember that an image seen at full-screen size may look wonderful, but can then look awful if viewed as a small thumnail. It will be very difficult for people to recognise that it is a crowd of people. Also, the idea of "finding the first free image I could find on WP" is great as a short-term solution, but is not acceptable as a long term solution. It should not be difficult to find someone willing to do a generic, conceptual artwork and release the image for use on Wikipedia. Carcharoth11:29, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
I, too am puzzled by the unreasoned outcry against the girls. I don't like 'em because they don't seem to have anything to do with BLP. If we find a good image, it can do a lot to drive home the message of the policy. I like the idea, expressed above, of an image with two "controversial" and widely-known people in it. Maybe Bush and the Iranian president. Whoever the two would be, an editor with art skills could make an appropriate combined image. It needs to be small, yet convey the ideas of BLP. This is NOT a big job for one with the right skills. Lou Sander17:15, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
While the two girls photo was not my favorite, I find the vehemence of some to be a little over the top. How about a picture of an infant? Crockspot17:25, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
So, obviously biased people like Gamaliel decide now, which objection is legitimate, and which is not? Where Wikipedia has come to? Personal recollections of a Gulag prisoner would be considered "POV," while sunny reports about successes of Stalinism from Pravda are OK, "published source," as long as some self-appointed "editor" in Florida is politically infrared? I agree 100% with what Peter1968 wrote to Gamaliel on Talk: Jack Vance page: "You guys (administrators, super-active Wikipedia addicts, template inventors, bored individuals, etc) seem hell-bent on converting Wikipedia from being an encyclopedia editable and readable by anyone, into some sort of esoteric cross-referenced morass of hypercomplexity. Every day I come to contribute to this admittedly well-intentioned website, there's some new template, some new project, some new policy (usually arcane and for the benefit of the person who quotes it), some new shortcut, some funkified userbar or some such. It's gone beyond a joke. The KISS principle pass you guys by, did it? You do know what you're succeeding at with all these shortcuts, templates and cross-references, don't you? You're turning people off from contributing by purposeful obfuscation." Arvin Sloane17:44, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree, this decision process should not be influenced disproportionately by those who choose to post entire messages in bold face (Arvin Sloane), or vandalise talk pages (Arvin Sloane), or personally attack editors whose intentions they know nothing about (Arvin Sloane, Peter1968). The problem here seems to be the picture's "political correctedness" which is somehow racist. The image isn't my favourite either but is better than no image. -- Renesis1317:53, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Are there two to four well-known public figures (does't have to be a politician - could be a movie star or an athlete - Tiger Woods? - that would make a nice collage? Shouldn't just be old, white, American guys (so I withdraw my Bush/Clinton suggestion). But there SHOULD be a picture - that draws the human eye, immediately. (I did a google search on "most recognizable faces" - doesn't seem to have been any worldwide survey, ever.) John Broughton18:02, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
| class="messagebox plainlinks articletalkheader" id="t_blp" style="background:#FFFAEF; text-align:center;"
| style="width:75px;" | || This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons. Controversial material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourcedmust be removed immediately, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted or if there are other concerns relative to this policy, report it on the living persons biographies noticeboard.
|}
Osama Bin Laden is alive and an example of someone easy to defame; illustrates BLP is about morality and not about whether we are going to get sued; illustrates this policy is about accuracy and not removing sourced negative information. WAS 4.25023:35, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Whatever image is used, it should suggest the topic. It probably needs to be small, but maybe not. Somebody with art skills needs to work on it. A crowd picture isn't too bad, but fails to suggest individual articles. A multiple-person image might be good; it should include images of people whose articles have had, or might have, BLP problems. It might also include an image that would signify "anybody else"--see "Unknown Living Person" above. IMHO those who are focusing on race and gender are very much off the track, unless they've seen or created BLP violations having to do with those subjects.
A collage or line-up might include Bush, BinLaden, Clinton, Unknown LP, and Crowd Scene. If you can think of somebody else whose article might have problems, especially if they are recognizable, add 'em or substitute 'em for one of the other LP's. Lou Sander03:12, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
We should not use any photo of any Bin Laden, Bush, or Wales. Usage could increase vandalism. The two girls are still the best proposal in my opinion whether or not they are living does not matter since no one really knows who they are. And with the size of the photo in the template, people could think the "african-american?" girl is a boy but even that does not matter. --HResearcher22:30, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
What? Have you actually read any of the comments above. Please read my comments about why the two girls image is unsuitable, and respond to specific points. At the moment, I think the "no image" solution is best - until something better can be thought of. And I strongly believe it should be a generic conceptual artwork suggesting the topic, not an actual picture of a living person (hey, eventually that person will die, so you have the argument over who to use instead). Carcharoth11:14, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
My view would be not to use any image. This template appears on thousands of pages; adding an image just means that on thousands of pages we are pushing the actual content down the screen in order to provide more decoration. Christopher Parham(talk)02:07, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I earlier proposed a change to an earlier version of the template, which has since been improved. There is still a matter I'd like to see included in the template because it is confusing to some editors. They claim that it only applies to the article, and I can see their point. Here's the relevant part of the current version:
"This article must adhere .....Negative material, especially if potentially libelous, must be removed immediately if it is unsourced or poorly sourced."
It does not make it clear that anything other than the article itself is included in the policy. Here is a suggested improvement (old parts in bold):
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons policy as it directly concerns one or more living people. Negative material, especially if potentially libelous, must be removed immediately if it is unsourced or poorly sourced. This applies to all articles and talk pages. The three-revert rule does not apply to such removals. Concerns relative to this policy can be addressed on the living persons biographies noticeboard.
Justification for this change is found in the very beginning of the policy's article:
"These principles also apply to biographical material about living persons in other articles."
If it has since been determined to apply the rule to private talk space, then that should be included by appropriate wording, such as "everywhere at Wikipedia." It seems to me I read this somewhere, including libelous material in archives. -- Fyslee20:26, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
I like that change because a regular issue on my talk page when my bot was running (which it will be again soon) was "why did you tag my article? what's wrong with it?". This wording change makes it clearer that it's a Wikipedia-wide issue. However, it's getting a bit long/wordy. Can we perhaps say the same thing in less words? --kingboyk09:33, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
I would suggest this:
This article directly concerns one or more living people. Negative material about a living person in any article or talk page, especially if potentially libelous, must be removed immediately if it is unsourced or poorly sourced. The three-revert rule does not apply to such removals. For more information, see the biographies of living persons policy and its noticeboard.
Yes it makes sense. WP:3RR should be linked to though. My only hesitation is that it's not clear that the noticeboard is to help solve issues related to BLP policy. This is where the current version is clearer (for concerns see... etc.). (→Netscott)12:37, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I'd have kept the 3RR link. We can go with a hybrid:
This article directly concerns one or more living people. Negative material about a living person in any article or talk page, especially if potentially libelous, must be removed immediately if it is unsourced or poorly sourced. The three-revert rule does not apply to such removals. Concerns relative to this policy can be addressed on the living persons biographies noticeboard.
I don't think it necessarily needs to mention the policy by name but the word "policy" should figure somewhere on the template. The wikilink makes sense on the "must be removed" part because it adds emphasis to that aspect of the policy. Here's another alternate:
This article directly concerns one or more living people. In accord with Wikipedia policy, negative material about a living person in any article or talk page, especially if potentially libelous, must be removed immediately if it is unsourced or poorly sourced. The three-revert rule does not apply to such removals. Concerns relative to this policy can be addressed on the living persons biographies noticeboard.
"Potentially libelous" is not clear enough. Even a neutral statement composed with other neutral statements in a certain way can be damaging when written with a 'spin'. Anything which is not source or poorly sourced should be removed, that includes negative, neutral, or positive statements. WP:V. --HResearcher22:42, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Shorter and simpler
Remember, this is used on thousands of already cluttered talk pages.
I have rearranged the clauses in the sentence "Negative material, especially if potentially libelous, must be removed immediately if it is unsourced or poorly sourced". The new sentence reads "Negative material that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous". The meaning is the same, but clarifies that it is not negative material per se that is a problem, but unsourced negative material. Also, by moving the reference to libel to the end, we remove the implication that unsourced though non-libelous negativity is somehow tolerable. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bucketsofg (talk • contribs) 21:06, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Policy in a nutshell says it better
This page in a nutshell: Wikipedia articles about living people can affect the subject's life. They must therefore be written with the greatest of care and attention to verifiability, neutrality and avoiding original research, particularly regarding any controversial material.
Sounds pretty fluffy to me. Anyway, this template is the specific important things about negative material that editors should know, not about the whole policy in general. —Centrx→talk • 03:32, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
This template needs an edit to mention 3RR, I think. As far as 3RR enforcement is concerned, we have WP:3RR#Reverting_potentially_libellous_material, which sez All users are encouraged to remove unsourced or poorly sourced blatantly defamatory, potentially libellous information about living persons, whether within a biography of a living person or elsewhere, including associated talk pages. As with vandalism, the repeated addition of such material is best dealt with by blocking and page protection, and repeated reversion should be used only as a last resort. Reverts made to enforce this provision are generally not considered contentious, because they are necessary. However, it can be easy to confuse removing potentially libellous material with an edit war over neutrality issues, which are contentious edits. Err on the side of caution: do not repeatedly remove material you consider defamatory unless it is blatant, and seek intervention from others early at Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. I think it very desirable that the template includes some mention of not breaking 3RR; or a ref to taht section William M. Connolley19:18, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
This just encourages repeated reverting. There is no reason to do this; if someone is repeatedly adding libellous information, an administrator needs to be contacted to either block the user or protect the page (which might warrant additional mention, though this should be part of the purpose of the BLP noticeboard). As a matter of policy, users who repeatedly revert to remove libellous information should not be blocked, but that does not mean that reverting should be favored over more successful, lasting, less disruptive solutions to libel problems. —Centrx→talk • 23:45, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
I must have missed a change in the policy. When the who BLP thing started, I thought it had been determined that 3RR does not apply in the case of removing libel, etc.? If there has been a change, adding some link to a page explaining the actual rule might be helpful. (It's possible the noticeboard contains this information, but most users won't go hunting for it; better to make a direct link to the current rule). 23skidoo17:47, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
There is no change in the policy, but there is no need to encourage revert warring in the template the appears on every one of the talk pages. In any case, the proper course of action if libellous statements are repeatedly inserted is to report it to the appropriate noticeboard; it would be bad to penalize someone for zealously removing libellous statements, but nevertheless repeatedly reverting does not ultimately solve the libel problem. —Centrx→talk • 00:48, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Template for section
Is there a section-specific version of this template? If not I'd like to request that an administrator either create or edit the existing template for use in a section. Thanks, John Reaves06:36, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
This template goes on the talk page of articles related to living persons. It is automatically added to talk pages that a WikiProject Biographies template, for living persons, but it applies to any article. —Centrx→talk • 23:47, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Impact of using template BLP on other than biography articles
WP:BLP applies "to biographical material about living persons in other articles." If use of Template BLP were limited to biographies, then Template BLP would read something like "This biography must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons" or "This article related to living persons must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons" However, template BLP states "This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons" and thus placement of the BLP template is not restricted by topic. {{WPBiography}} has a parameter to {{WPBiography}} where someone can add living=yes and the text of the BLP template appears. In reviewing this (see Talk:Banjee#WP:BLP, I discovered that use of Template BLP on other than biography topics is not expressly part of the BLP guideline templates section, but the overall BLP guideline seems to permit it. However, since every article potentially could include biographical material about living persons, template BLP potentially could be placed on the talk page of every article. On the other end of the issue, restricting template BLP to only article having biography topics makes template BLP useless since {{WPBiography}} already serves that function. The answer may be somewhere in the middle. I think if we have a discussion on the impact of using template BLP, we may be able to derive guidance on using template BLP on other than biography articles. Please place your comments below. -- Jreferee17:18, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
In theory, every article needs to adhere to WP:BLP, whether or not the template is present. On non-biography articles, I'd only actually place it on articles where there has been a problem in the past, or is especially likely to be a problem in the future (political campaign articles, scandal event articles, etc...). GRBerry03:07, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
SlimVirgin (talk) 23:56, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
SlimVirgin (talk) 15:57, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Current "two girls" image.
Use Pioneer plaque image?
This or similar heart icon?
George W. Public domain.
A gender neutral stick figure.
Unknown Living Person![The instigator of the policy[1], famous in these parts, and alive and well ;)](//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b3/Jimmy_Wales_in_August_2006.jpg/88px-Jimmy_Wales_in_August_2006.jpg)
The instigator of the policy[1], famous in these parts, and alive and well ;)
![The instigator of the policy[1], famous in these parts, and alive and well ;)](/wiki/File:Jimmy_Wales_in_August_2006.jpg)
.jpg&action=edit&redlink=1){kind=link}
|| This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons. Controversial material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted or if there are other concerns relative to this policy, report it on the living persons biographies noticeboard.
|}
