Template talk:Authority control/Archive 15

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Restructure of data

I have been working on some improved efficiency in the module sandbox. The /config page now contains just tables, so "mw.loadData" function can be used instead of "require". All the auxiliary functions have been moved to /auxiliary which can be accessed using the "valid" and "customlink" parameters. No change in appearance is intended. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 16:45, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

I have just noticed an issue with the Bibliothèque nationale de France ID (P268) identifier. When there are two different ids the second one is not abbreviated with a number 2 as usual but is displayed again in full. I think this might have been my fault. But I can't do much with the "data" link. I wonder if that is actually needed/useful or not? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 15:10, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

I have fixed this on the sandbox. Still not ideal with the "data" link but perhaps the best we can do — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 15:29, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

• Comment Suboptimal. Why not divide in two separate identifiers: "France general" and "France data"? Grimes2 (talk) 18:25, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Simply "France" and "France (data)" might be better. I agree with splitting them up; it avoids the redundant repetition of "data" and the awkward nested brackets. "France" would be repeated instead, but it would only happen once and without nested brackets. An alternative might be to use "BnF Data" instead of "France (data)", which is how it appears in the site header, to avoid repetition. – Scyrme (talk) 18:38, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Y OK. Grimes2 (talk) 18:47, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

How's that looking now? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 22:55, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Y OK. Grimes2 (talk) 00:43, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

 Deployed — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:40, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Error CiNii Books author ID (P271)

Grimes2 (talk) 07:06, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Already fixed in sandbox Grimes2 (talk) 08:07, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Deployed fix — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:39, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

New sandbox

I've created a new staging sandbox at /config/staging for code which either is uncontroversial or has consensus to be implemented. This will make it possible to use the test cases to spot unintended changes, while allowing us to keep playing in the real sandbox — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:56, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Sandbox with "Related pages" box

Module:Authority control/config/sandbox should have links to related pages. Grimes2 (talk) 18:51, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

 Done - you could also have just added this yourself — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 14:09, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you Grimes2 (talk) 14:35, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Doc sandbox = doc

Template:Authority control/doc uses the sandbox identifier information in the table (same information as Template:Authority control/sandbox) Is this a bug? Grimes2 (talk) 17:48, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Sort of. Please see discussion at Template talk:Sandbox other#/doc for more background — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 17:54, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

User:DePiep insists it is not a bug — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 17:56, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

It conforms documentation. DePiep (talk) 20:28, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Grimes2, {{sandbox other}} is an imperfect name for what is does (by design, from origin): prevent non-production template pages to be categorised (polluting categories by adding "../sandbox" pages).

By extension, that template also considers "../doc" and "../sandbox2" pages as sandbox, for the same reason. If a more specific template is needed, see {{Namespace and pagename-detecting templates}}.

What User:MSGJ refers to, is that we'd better have a more precise name--function situation; I agree, but we cannot change the behaviour of a 200.000 transclusions template. (IOW, a different changeover process is needed). HTH DePiep (talk) 20:26, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Remove RERO temporarily?

RERO (Library Network of Western Switzerland) is not accessible. Should we disable this ID in AC? Grimes2 (talk) 19:24, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

If they are completely broken, then yes. We had a discussion about this, but without conclusion — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:36, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

 Removed RERO ID (obsolete) (P3065) on sandbox — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:23, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Dear Grimes2 and Martin, is there any update on whether or not RERO plans on adding its new MEF IDs back to VIAF? As an example, I link here the MEF ID for Wisnton Churchill. As per the old discussion, we will surely need a new RERO ID, and it would be easier to have the new MEF ID automatically be rertrieved from VIAF (incase that is RERO's plan). Or is it wiser (and faster) to create a new RERO ID based on the MEF ID that Wikipedians retrieve directly from RERO? Please advise. Kind regards, Spinster300 (talk) 16:59, 4 March 2023 (UTC).

AFAIK, the RERO ID will be merged with and replaced by IdRef ID (P269). Grimes2 (talk) 17:08, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for that update! Kind regards, Spinster300 (talk) 07:21, 11 March 2023 (UTC).

RERO is now removed from live template — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:39, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Error

"Script error: The function "docConfTable" does not exist" in Help:Authority control. Grimes2 (talk) 13:08, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Fixed. --ted (talk) 13:22, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. I have moved the documentation functions out of the main module so that they are not protected and anybody can tinker with them — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:40, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Oxford DNB

Is there some reason why the Oxford DNB isn't picked up by this template? It's Oxford Dictionary of National Biography ID (P1415). It should be in "biographical dictionaries". -- asilvering (talk) 21:31, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

• Comment Subscription required. Could be activated via {{para|show|P1415}} (optional)? Grimes2 (talk) 21:41, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

  I have access via The Wikipedia Library (https://wikipedialibrary.wmflabs.org/users/my_library/). Grimes2 (talk) 21:47, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

  Okay, good. https://doi-org.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/10.1093/ref:odnb/$1 seems like a good URL — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:55, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

  Added to sandbox and example below. Looks like a good addition to me — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 22:02, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

  Thank you! -- asilvering (talk) 22:04, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

  Sorry, is this an instruction for me or a suggestion for someone who might edit the authcontrol template? If it's for me I'm not sure how to add this and would appreciate instructions or a link. -- asilvering (talk) 21:56, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Without a subscription (which most readers/editors will not have) this link does not seem to have much of value — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:48, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't think most readers use Authority Control at all, and that the people who do use it are disproportionately likely to have these kinds of subscriptions. If it's not in authority control, it will be in "external links" or "bibliography" and take up more space, and readers will still need a subscription to read it regardless. -- asilvering (talk) 21:54, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

• Support Works, but is this permitted. The license is only for Wikipedia editors. Grimes2 (talk) 22:05, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria: Please have a look. Grimes2 (talk) 22:30, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Can it not just link directly to the entry? That would be more available - you could use whatever proxy you needed or wanted to. Oxford DNB is also open to anyone at a public library or with a public library card in the UK, as far as I'm aware - far more people than have Wikipedia library access. -- asilvering (talk) 22:24, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

I've tested by logout. All user have access to that link. Grimes2 (talk) 22:27, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Yep, if this is to be included I'd suggest using a nonproxied version. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:47, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose We shouldn't link to (commercial) competition encyclopedia in AC. Grimes2 (talk) 05:37, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

  Commercial competition? Wikipedia is non-profit. Or are you saying that AC should only link to other non-profit organisations? – Scyrme (talk) 15:45, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

  It would seem strange to link to a subscription-only service when there is an alternative that every Wikipedia editor can access for free — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 15:50, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

• So shall we add this? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 14:10, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

   No Grimes2 (talk) 14:17, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

  Even with the free access link? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 14:21, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

  AFAIK, Nikkimaria from The Wikipedia Library didn't recommend the free access link (proxied version). The subscription link is worthless. Grimes2 (talk) 14:26, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

  Perhaps Nikkimaria would explain her reasoning in more detail — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 14:49, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

  To the extent that this template follows WP:EL, proxied links are to be avoided. Plus that's not the only mechanism of access for this particular source - to my understanding, it's widely available to those based in the UK. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:54, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

  If all other things are equal then I might agree, but there seems to be a very good reason to use Wikipedia Library rather than directing people to a paywall. It also does not seem to quite match the meaning of "proxy" described there - I may bring it up for discussion at WT:EL — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:41, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

  The legal point of view is unambiguously: The licence is for Wikipedia editors and not for Wikipedia users. Grimes2 (talk) 19:06, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, as far as I am aware it's freely available in the UK. It's also frequently paid for by academic libraries worldwide, so students and teachers outside of the UK may have their own access available. The Wikipedia Library is only available to extended confirmed editors as far as I know? I was frequently frustrated as a newcomer myself by people who suggested "any editor" can use that service. -- asilvering (talk) 03:02, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

  My original proposal was: Make Oxford optional for user with access. Grimes2 (talk) 03:52, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

  We can either display it on an article for everyone or for no one. Unless you are proposing some kind of automatic detection for extended confirmed users, which would be a lot of effort for questionable gain. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 23:50, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

  And, again, the vast majority of people with ODNB access are not people with access to the wikipedia library. -- asilvering (talk) 18:54, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Remarks

The template {{lang}} is not working in the 'Remarks' statement. (See Template:Authority control/doc#List of identifiers) --ted (talk) 12:22, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

I think I know how to fix that ... — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:41, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Fixed on sandbox — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:52, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Deployed fix — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 22:19, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Grammy Awards artist ID P7303

Request: Please add Grammy Awards artist ID (P7303). Example: Georg Solti links to https://www.grammy.com/artists/georg-solti/7181 Grimes2 (talk) 21:33, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Code in /sandbox and example below — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 15:37, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Works. Grimes2 (talk) 16:17, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Opinions sought from other editors on whether this is a good addition to the template ... — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:14, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

As there have been no comments/opposition I plan to add these to the live module tomorrow — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 22:41, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Pattern seems to be wrong. See ABBA. Grimes2 (talk) 08:56, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Sandbox works. Grimes2 (talk) 09:54, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

I got the pattern from Grammy Awards artist ID (P7303) on Wikidata but it turned out to be wrong on there — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:03, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

The syntax is <artist>/<ID> (4 or 5 digits). Grimes2 (talk) 10:31, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

That should be fixed now — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:42, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Category:All articles with faulty authority control information has a number of entries related to this, but all of them appear to have working identifiers. The links work, the template does not display the warning triangle, and the Wikidata item does not display an error either. These ids also appear to be consistent with the regex on Wikidata.

There are a large number of format violations on Wikidata, but these are caused by deprecated ids and are unrelated to the articles listed in the category. – Scyrme (talk) 23:43, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

It's just the job queue catching up after the pattern was updated. I also updated the format constraint on Wikidata at the same time, so those should be clearing out too. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:37, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Ah, right; the category does appear to be sorting itself out now. The Wikidata format violations that remain don't appear to be clearing out though. Should I be more patient, or is there a problem?

To be clear, the items listed definitely don't match the regex. The regex is correct, but the ids actually are faulty. If you check the the relevant items (eg. Pink Floyd (Q2306)) you'll see there are two ids, one of which is marked as deprecated and it's that id that's being flagged as a format violation by the category. – Scyrme (talk) 17:37, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps there should be an "exception to constraint" set to "obsolete (deprecated)"? Or are deprecated ids meant to be ignored automatically? – Scyrme (talk) 17:40, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

I agree that deprecated ids should be excluded from the report. I may discuss with the bot operator to see if it can be done. And you can see from the history that the report updated yesterday and a lot of items were cleared out at that time — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 17:46, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Dear Grimes2, Marting, and Scyrme, I believe there is a similar Academy Awards Database nominee ID and Academy Awards Database film ID which might also be useful to add? Please let me know your thoughts. I am suggesting these identifiers over here, but we can move this under a new topic if required. Kind regards, Spinster300 (talk) 07:07, 12 March 2023 (UTC).

Not at this point of time. The links for both Ids are not working. Grimes2 (talk) 07:13, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Dear Grimes2, could you please check the Emmys person ID in that case? Its use would be similar to that of the Grammy Awards ID. Kind regards, Spinster300 (talk) 17:07, 12 March 2023 (UTC).

Y OK. Added to sandbox. Grimes2 (talk) 17:20, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

List of identifier

Request: Is it possible to sort "List of identifier" by identifier by default? Grimes2 (talk) 13:25, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

The default order is the order they are listed on /config. Can you reorder that page accordingly? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:28, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

The only restriction is that if suppressedbyproperty is used then the it must appear after the property that suppresses it — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 23:14, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

OK, I'll not touch the order. This can be done already by one click. Grimes2 (talk) 11:03, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Icons

I notice that the infobox on commons uses some icons for authority control databases. For example and and . Would it be worth discussing whether these can be used in the template to improve recognition? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:32, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't think they're needed, and they could create a clutter problem. They could also introduce inconsistency if only some have icons and others don't. – Scyrme (talk) 13:46, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Too much chichi. Grimes2 (talk) 14:15, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

What is this word "chichi"? :) — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:54, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Ohh sorry, seems to be a German word, means unnecessary embellishment/ornamentation. Grimes2 (talk) 22:37, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Sections

Try to reorganize sections in sandbox. Grimes2 (talk) 00:31, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Proposal1: Martin, singular are plural in section titles? Lighthouses vs. Lighthouse. I think singular, as all items are identifiers, "Lighthouse" is short for "Lighthouse identifiers". Grimes2 (talk) 07:33, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Proposal2: Rename section "Scientific databases" to "Science". Grimes2 (talk) 11:46, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

A few comments. "Scientific databases" is more descriptive than "science". I also think "lighthouse identifiers" is clearer than just "lighthouse". It may be redundant for people who know what authority control means, but I suspect most readers do not know. "Location" sounds like it will bring up a map or tell you the location of the building, whereas "location identifiers" would be less ambiguous. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 16:23, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

 Done Grimes2 (talk) 16:49, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Unless we move "identifiers" into the heading and then the group names could be shorted. Would "Authority control identifiers" make any sense? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:18, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes, repetition of the word "identifiers" in every section is not optimal. Grimes2 (talk) 13:44, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Looks like a reasonable list to try, but I would like other editors to express their opinions. "Museum artist identifiers" doesn't make sense to me, because what is a "museum artist"? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:32, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

 Done Grimes2 (talk) 09:20, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

The proposed sections seem a bit inconsistent. I'm especially not sure about "Music identifiers". It mixes people, organisations, artistic works, and even places. The same isn't done for the Structurae "structure" and "person" identifiers, which are each under different sections. – Scyrme (talk) 23:37, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Proposed sections

Section Description Identifiers 1 International ISNI (P213), VIAF ID (P214), FAST ID (P2163), WorldCat Entities ID (P10832) 2 National GND ID (P227), Library of Congress authority ID (P244), Bibliothèque nationale de France ID (P268), Bibliothèque nationale de France ID (P268), NDL Authority ID (P349), SBN author ID (P396), Libraries Australia ID (P409), NL CR AUT ID (P691), RSL ID (person) (P947), National Library of Spain ID (P950), National Library of Romania ID (P1003), Portuguese National Library author ID (P1005), Nationale Thesaurus voor Auteursnamen ID (P1006), NORAF ID (P1015), NCL ID (P1048), National Library of Latvia ID (P1368), NSK ID (P1375), CCAB ID (P1890), National Library of Greece ID (P3348), BNMM authority ID (P3788), National Library of Korea ID (P5034), Libris-URI (P5587), SELIBR ID (P906), PLWABN ID (P7293), NLP ID (old) (P1695), Vatican Library VcBA ID (P8034), J9U ID (P8189), KANTO ID (P8980), CANTIC ID (P9984), KBR person ID (P11249) 3 Geographic Mérimée ID (P380), Structurae structure ID (P454), MusicBrainz area ID (P982), MusicBrainz place ID (P1004), Pleiades ID (P1584), Global Volcanism Program ID (P1886), NCES school ID (P2484), ARLHS lighthouse ID (P2980), Online List of Lights ID (P3223), World Waterfall Database ID (P3326), Klosterdatenbank ID (P3407), Admiralty number (P3562), NGA lighthouse ID (P3563), MarineTraffic Lighthouse ID (P3601), USCG lighthouse ID (P3723), Italian Navy Lighthouses and Beacons ID (P3863), Canadian Coastguard Lighthouse ID (P3920), Vitaskrá ID (P3993), Danish List of Lights and Fog signals ID (P4038), Norwegian List of Lights ID (P4055), Finnish List of Lights ID (P4143), Portuguese lighthouse ID (P4423), EUTA theatre ID (P4535), StadiumDB ID (P5288), BGCI garden ID (P5818), EBIDAT ID (P9725) 4 Academics NACSIS-CAT author ID (P271), botanist author abbreviation (P428), ORCID iD (P496), Mathematics Genealogy Project ID (P549), ACM Digital Library author ID (P864), ResearcherID (P1053), Scopus author ID (P1153), zbMATH author ID (P1556), Google Scholar author ID (P1960), DBLP author ID (P2456), PhilPeople profile (P3233), Publons author ID (P3829), MR Author ID (P4955), Leopoldina member ID (new) (P10299) 5 Artists Union List of Artist Names ID (P245), MusicBrainz artist ID (P434), RKDartists ID (P650), SIKART ID (P781), KulturNav-ID (P1248), DAAO ID (P1707), Information Center for Israeli Art artist ID (P1736), National Gallery of Victoria artist ID (P2041), Museum of Modern Art artist ID (P2174), Musée d'Orsay artist ID (P2268), Stuttgart Database of Scientific Illustrators ID (P2349), Photographers’ Identities Catalog ID (P2750), Auckland Art Gallery artist ID (P3372), ADK member ID (P4114), DAHR artist ID (P4457), Städel Museum artist ID (P4581), BRAHMS artist ID (P5226), Museo del Prado artist ID (P5321), National Gallery of Canada artist ID (P5368), Find NZ Artists ID (P6792), Art Gallery of South Australia creator ID (P6804), Grammy Awards artist ID (P7303), Emmys person ID (P8381), LexM ID (P9692) 6 People Biografisch Portaal van Nederland ID (P651), ISIL (P791), BMLO ID (P865), Sycomore ID (P1045), World Athletics athlete ID (P1146), US Congress Bio ID (P1157), MEP directory ID (P1186), NLA Trove people ID (P1315), Australian Dictionary of Biography ID (P1907), CWGC person ID (P1908), Treccani's Biographical Dictionary of Italian People ID (P1986), Structurae person ID (P2418), autores.uy ID (P2558), Australian Women's Register ID (P4186), EUTA person ID (P4534), UK Parliament ID (P6213), Dictionary of Irish Biography ID (P6829), Deutsche Biographie (GND) ID (P7902), Parliament of Australia MP ID (P10020), Deutsche Synchronkartei person ID (P11646), DDB person (GND) ID (P13049) 7 Other IdRef ID (P269), Joconde work ID (P347), RKDimages ID (P350), MusicBrainz work ID (P435), MusicBrainz release group ID (P436), JPL Small-Body Database SPK-ID (P716), Lexicon istoric retic ID (P886), HDS ID (P902), MusicBrainz label ID (P966), U.S. National Archives Identifier (P1225), Terminologia Anatomica 98 ID (P1323), MusicBrainz instrument ID (P1330), Theaterlexikon der Schweiz ID (P1362), MusicBrainz series ID (P1407), SNAC ARK ID (P3430), Te Papa agent ID (P3544), Encyclopedia of Modern Ukraine ID (P4613), BRAHMS work ID (P5302), RISM ID (P5504), Minor Planet Center body ID (P5736), TDV İslam Ansiklopedisi ID (P7314), Deutsche Bahn station code (P8671), Internet Encyclopedia of Ukraine ID (P9070), ELMCIP ID (P12204), Bildindex der Kunst und Architektur PID (P12754)

• ✗ Fail Proposed section don't display sandbox. Grimes2 (talk) 16:36, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

 Fixed Grimes2 (talk) 16:53, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Rename sections

An example for the organization of an Authority control navbox: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Property_navboxes#Authority_control

• General -> International
• Scientific databases -> Academics
• Art research institutes -> Arts
• Biographical dictionaries -> Dictionaries
• Remove "identifiers"

Grimes2 (talk) 07:40, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Museum identifiers seems to be mainly art galleries (rather than museums) so could perhaps be merged into Arts. All the biographical dictionary entries are about biographies/people so perhaps better to keep that in the section name, or could they be merged with People identifiers? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 23:00, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Biographical dictionaries should be a subsection of Persons, also Lighthouses of Geographic and Museums of Arts. Grimes2 (talk) 01:01, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

• International
• National: Library
• Art: Museum
• Art: Research
• Person: Dictionary
• Person: Academic
• Geographic: Lighthouse
• Geographic
• Person
• Person: Music
• Music
• Other

Grimes2 (talk) 01:26, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

 Done Implemented in sandbox. Grimes2 (talk) 14:11, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

In general I think fewer groups is preferable. Why not group the arts together? Do we need 4 groups for person? Lighthouse could be put with Geographic perhaps. I'm not really sure and would still like to see more comments from others. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:08, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

• International
• National Library
• Art
• Academic
• Geographic
• Person
• Music
• Other

 Needs discussion Grimes2 (talk) 13:21, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

No one else is commenting so maybe we should make the change and see if that prompts any praise/criticism? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:44, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

The list above "Needs discussion" still appears to include the "Music" section I criticised earlier, but the collapsible "Proposed sections" has dissolved it so I'm not sure what the current proposal even is. I had planned to take a closer look at the table and try to think of a counterproposal, but I wanted to do it tomorrow when I'll have more time. – Scyrme (talk) 19:09, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Implemented in sandbox. The composers and performers go to section Person, the rest (works, etc.) in Music. Grimes2 (talk) 19:41, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

This is loaded up in /staging for deployment next — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 22:53, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

It's taking a bit longer to sort through all these ids than I thought so I'll have to finish my alternative suggestion tomorrow, sorry. – Scyrme (talk) 23:05, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

No problem. We wait for your comments! — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 23:28, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

 Question: Currently the "General" and "Other" sections do not show their labels when they are the only section. How should this behaviour continue with the new labels? I have added a hidelabelwhenalone flag to the p.sections config table to control this — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 23:30, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Hide label only for "Other". Grimes2 (talk) 23:43, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Counterproposal

Here's my suggestion:

Counterproposal (id table with sections)

Section	Description	Identifiers
1	International	FAST ID (P2163), ISNI (P213), VIAF ID (P214)
2	National*	Biblioteca Nacional de España ID (P950), Bibliothèque nationale de France ID (P268), BNMM authority ID (P3788), CANTIC ID (P9984), CCAB ID (P1890), Encyclopedia of Modern Ukraine ID (P4613), GND ID (P227), IdRef ID (P269), KANTO ID (P8980), Libraries Australia ID (P409), Library of Congress authority ID (P244), National Library of Greece ID (P3348), National Library of Israel J9U ID (P8189), National Library of Korea ID (P5034), National Library of Latvia ID (P1368), National Library of Romania ID (P1003), Nationale Thesaurus voor Auteurs ID (P1006), NCL ID (P1048), NDL Authority ID (P349), NKCR AUT ID (P691), NORAF ID (P1015), NLP ID (old) (P1695), NSK ID (P1375), PLWABN ID (P7293), RSL ID (person) (P947), SBN author ID (P396), SELIBR ID (P906), Vatican Library VcBA ID (P8034)
3	Geographic	Admiralty number (P3562), ARLHS lighthouse ID (P2980), BGCI garden ID (P5818), Canadian Coastguard Lighthouse ID (P3920), Danish List of Lights and Fog signals ID (P4038), EBIDAT ID (P9725), EUTA theatre ID (P4535), Finnish List of Lights ID (P4143), Italian Navy Lighthouses and Beacons ID (P3863), MarineTraffic Lighthouse ID (P3601), Mérimée ID (P380), MusicBrainz area ID (P982), MusicBrainz place ID (P1004), NGA lighthouse ID (P3563), Norwegian List of Lights ID (P4055), Online List of Lights ID (P3223), Pleiades ID (P1584), Portuguese lighthouse ID (P4423), Smithsonian volcano ID (P1886), StadiumDB identifier (P5288), Structurae structure ID (P454), USCG lighthouse ID (P3723), Vitaskrá ID (P3993), World Waterfall Database ID (P3326)
4	Academics	ACM Digital Library author ID (P864), Botanist author abbreviation (P428), CiNii Books author ID (P271), DBLP author ID (P2456), Google Scholar author ID (P1960), Mathematics Genealogy Project ID (P549), MR Author ID (P4955), ORCID ID (P496), Publons author ID (P3829), ResearcherID (P1053), Scopus author ID (P1153), Terminologia Anatomica 98 ID (P1323), zbMATH author ID (P1556)
5	Artists	Auckland Art Gallery artist ID (P3372), Art Gallery of South Australia creator ID (P6804), BRAHMS artist ID (P5226), DAAO ID (P1707), Find NZ Artists ID (P6792), Grammy Awards artist ID (P7303), Information Center for Israeli Art artist ID (P1736), KulturNav-ID (P1248), Museum of Modern Art artist ID (P2174), Musée d'Orsay artist ID (P2268), MusicBrainz artist ID (P434), National Gallery of Canada artist ID (P5368), National Gallery of Victoria artist ID (P2041), Photographers' Identities Catalog ID (P2750), Pinakothek artist ID (P4025), Museo del Prado artist ID (P5321), RKDartists ID (P650), SIKART ID (P781), Städel Museum artist ID (P4581), Structurae person ID (P2418), Stuttgart Database of Scientific Illustrators ID (P2349), Te Papa agent ID (P3544), Union List of Artist Names ID (P245)
6	People	Australian Dictionary of Biography ID (P1907), autores.uy ID (P2558), Australian Women's Register ID (P4186), BMLO ID (P865), Biografisch Portaal van Nederland ID (P651), CWGC person ID (P1908), Dictionary of Irish Biography ID (P6829), Deutsche Biographie (GND) ID (P7902), EU Transparency Register ID (P2657), EUTA person ID (P4534), ISIL (P791), Oxford Dictionary of National Biography ID (P1415), Sycomore ID (P1045), Treccani's Biographical Dictionary of Italian People ID (P1986), UK Parliament identifier (P6213), US Congress Bio ID (P1157), World Athletics athlete ID (P1146)
7	Other	BRAHMS work ID (P5302), Bildindex der Kunst und Architektur ID (P2092), Europeana entity (P7704), HDS ID (P902), Internet Encyclopedia of Ukraine ID (P9070), Joconde work ID (P347), Lexicon istoric retic ID (P886), MusicBrainz instrument ID (P1330), MusicBrainz label ID (P966), MusicBrainz release group ID (P436), MusicBrainz series ID (P1407), MusicBrainz work ID (P435), NLA Trove people ID (P1315), RISM ID (P5504), RKDimages ID (P350), SNAC ARK ID (P3430), TDV İslam Ansiklopedisi ID (P7314), Theaterlexikon der Schweiz ID (P1362), U.S. National Archives Identifier (P1225),

Notes/comments

Sections are ordered alphabetically except "International", "National", and "Other". I've attempted to order all the identifiers fully alphabetically within each section; if something is not in order, that's not intended and you should amend it. I've tried to more consistently organise the sections by what's kind of thing is being identified by a particular identifer (the "domain" using Wikidata's terminology), while otherwise maintaining the "International" and "National" sections. Some of the 'person' identifiers include "legal persons" and collectives/organisations, which is why I've chosen to use "People" not "Person". I'm not familiar with every one of these ids but have tried to place them in the appropriate section; if an identifier should be in a different section, you should amend it. "Geographic" covers locations, places, and both natural and aritifical structures that exist somewhere in the world. "People: artists" includes musicians, actors, designers, and architects; it encompasses all artforms. "Other" collects identifers that cover both people and non-people or entities/objects/works. The remaining sections should be self-explanatory. Unless I've made a mistake, I have included every id listed in the "Proposed sections". I've also included most of the identifiers listed in the "Authority control properties" template on Wikidata, except those under "National" which I've not checked (I wasn't sure about "VIAF part" vs "other", and to be honest I was tired of organising identifiers), which is why there's an asterisk next to "National". I've organised them independently of where I found them; they aren't necessarily in the same/similarly-named sections. Those identifiers that only appear in the Wikidata template are commented out (and so, hidden in the collapsible table). Probably unnecessary to include them at all, but I thought it might be worth seeing where they might fit and if anything is missing. There are 7 sections in the counterproposal, one fewer than the current template and the proposal. Regarding hiding the labels, I say hide any of them when there's only 1 to conserve space, since distinguishing the groupings isn’t needed. I don't think any of them need to be always displayed, even if alone. I can't see how having any of them always display would be helpful. That said, perhaps it may be worth having conditional labels. That is, if "People: general" is the only "People" section, it may be better if it only displayed as "People" without a qualifer. Similarly, "People: academics" could display simply as "Academics". Likewise "People: artists" simply as "Artists".

The "Notes" above should hopefully answer any questions; they also include my thoughts on conditional section labels. – Scyrme (talk) 23:07, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Counterproposal discussion

• Comment Logical structure. ISIL (P791) is Geographic (libraries, museums, archives). What does the asterisk mean in section "National*"? Prefer short "People", "Academics" and "Artists". Grimes2 (talk) 07:42, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

ISIL covers organisations, not just the buildings that house them, so I judged it to be a "People" identifier rather than an architectural ("Geographic") identifier. The asterisk is explained in the notes. If others would rather always omit "People:" rather than conditionally (as I suggested in the notes/comments), I can accept that. – Scyrme (talk) 13:15, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

• Comments: thanks for putting this together Scyrme. Most of it looks good. I do not have strong opinions on this so happy to leave you and Grimes to sort out the details. However just a few suggestions below.

• Better to make uncontroversial incremental changes rather than trying to get it "perfect" in one go.
• Better to decide on the sections first, then fine-tuning of which links go in which section can be done later.
• Remember that in the vast majority of articles, only one or two sections will be visible. So better to make decisions with these articles in mind rather than assuming that many sections will be seen.
• The most important reason for having the sections is to make the target of the links clearer to readers, without taking up too much space. So for example, National libraries: Spain is much clearer than just Spain. Therefore in most cases it is better not to omit the section title (even if there is only one).
• Any changes to the structure of the template (e.g. subections or conditional labels beyond hidelabelwhenalone) can be done but will take longer to implement

— Martin (MSGJ · talk) 22:00, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Implementing these changes incrementally would introduce inconsistency, which defeats the point of my suggestion: to organise the identifiers in a more consistent way. Regardless, I don't have the user permissions to edit the template myself, so I am only able to make suggestions. If that person who implements these changes (most likely you) would rather implement them incrementally they can do so. That's not up to me. I can only provide a suggestion and hope it is persuasive. I felt that being comprehensive would be more persuave because it would make the intended outcome clearer (regardless of whether the implementation of that outcome is incremental or not).

Regarding only one or two sections will be visible, I did have that in mind; that is why I suggested conditional labelling for sections which changes how they display in exactly that circumstance. I'm not sure why you feel the need to stress this.

Regarding omitting titles, if you feel it's better to always display them I'm fine with that. I don't feel strongly about it. – Scyrme (talk) 00:02, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Proposal - subsections

• Proposal Subsections.

Grimes2 (talk) 08:55, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

This takes up more horizontal space. A "People:" prefix allows vertical space to be used instead which might be better (unless you disagree), and I think it would be easier to implement conditional labelling (see "notes/comments") with a prefix. I could accept the subsections if it can be combined with the conditional labels I suggested. In this case, conditional labelling would mean that the subsection would display as a main section when it is the only "People" section present, but I'm not sure how that could be implemented. I prefer alphabetical order for subsections ("General" last). – Scyrme (talk) 13:15, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

@Grimes2: If we title them in short form as you suggested earlier, the subsections aren't needed. Which do you prefer? I think I'd prefer just going with the short form as that would be easiest to implement and would conserve space, but I'm willing to accept subsections if that's what you'd prefer. – Scyrme (talk) 00:14, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Proposal - GND high-level entities

Proposal: +3 entities (sections), no subsections. I found this: Integrated Authority File. The table shows (official) types of GND high-level entities. This could be a model for our navbox.

Grimes2 (talk) 01:01, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Given that many adaptations have to be made to make this workable, such as cutting "event", I'm not sure what the advantage of using it as a guide is.

Separating "corporate body" from the person identifiers makes the placement of identifiers needlessly contentious. Many identifiers that cover persons, academics, and artists also cover "legal persons", that is, collective "corporate bodies". I think it is better to use the "people" model I suggested, rather than try to restrict identifiers to individual persons only.

"Work" and "Topical term" are more workable, but I don't see the benefit in splitting them from "Other" when there aren't many identifiers to fill them. MSGJ expressed a preference for fewer sections, and my suggestion results in a roughly even spread between the six sections under "International". If future additions result in "Other" filling up with very many identifiers relative to other sections, this can be revisited.

The order of these sections seems arbitrary. I'm not sure why you appended "-al place" to "Geographic", as that adds unneeded extra width. "Geographic" implies "place", doesn't it?

Overall, I prefer what I originally suggested. – Scyrme (talk) 02:34, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Consensus

We have reached consensus to implement Scyrme's "Counterproposal (id table with sections)". Your opinion, Martin? Grimes2 (talk) 06:44, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Looks good. Would you (or someone) mind making the required changes to Module:Authority control/config/staging, along with any other changes that have consensus? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 22:20, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Extremely difficult to implement in staging. Where can I see the staging identifier/section table (to check the results)? Status: Implementation incomplete. @Scyrme: Please check and complete it. Grimes2 (talk) 06:36, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

 Implemented  Reviewing request. Grimes2 (talk) 09:41, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

I changed some section=8 to section=7 because there is no section 8 on the proposed version. This was just to fix an error and haven't had time to check everything else — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:58, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Ha! You must have made the same change at the same time because my edit did not go through — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:01, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

NLA Trove people into section 6 perhaps? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:02, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

"Trove is an online service created by the National Library of Australia ABN 28 346 858 075 (NLA).", "Contributed by National Library of Australia" and "Trove is a collaboration between the National Library of Australia and hundreds of Partner organisations around Australia." perhaps in section 2? Grimes2 (talk) 10:06, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

We already have Libraries Australia ID (P409) in the National section — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:01, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Moved to section 6. Grimes2 (talk) 11:34, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

MusicBrainz place and area from 7 to 3? Grimes2 (talk) 10:24, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Sure. I've deployed the new structure. We can always tweak these later. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:53, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

ISIL (P791) from 3 to 6. Libraries are organizations. Grimes2 (talk) 08:31, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

I moved a few around, particularly the geographical MusicBrainz ones to 3, and some others related to works rather than the artists who made them from 5 to 7. I also moved botanist author abbreviation (P428) from 6 to 4. I assume this is what you meant by check/complete it? – Scyrme (talk) 18:50, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Approved Grimes2 (talk) 19:03, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

I didn't touch the whitelists since I'm not sure how that's supposed to work; they probably need to be amended to reflect the changes. – Scyrme (talk) 20:11, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

You changed IdRef to section 2. All the others in section 2 have the country as their label, so perhaps we need to change the label. What country is it from? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:35, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

@MSGJ: I was less attentive to that section (one of the reasons for the asterisk) and followed Grimes' proposal for it even in my counterproposal. However, I didn't actually move it in /staging; it's currently in 7. Seems to be French, but there is already one for France. Perhaps this is a situation like Trove. Wikidata gives its "domain" as covering people, places, and works; it's very broad. Looking at it now, I'd say leave it in 7. – Scyrme (talk) 22:21, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Second "Germany" (in People section) to "Deutsche Biographie"? Grimes2 (talk) 06:47, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Seems sensible to me. Scyrme (talk) 02:52, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Terminologia Anatomica 98 ID (P1323) appears to cover terminology not people; I think it should be moved to 7. – Scyrme (talk) 02:52, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Support Grimes2 (talk) 07:01, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Why is the Encyclopedia of Modern Ukraine listed as a "national" identifier? It's an encyclopedia not a national library. Shouldn't it be moved to 7? – Scyrme (talk) 18:21, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

I've moved it in /staging. – Scyrme (talk) 15:11, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

FAST ID, ORCID, ISNI

Faceted Application of Subject Terminology (FAST) seems to be a more general identifier with 1,700,000 authority records. I think, this identifier should be placed in the "General" section. On the other hand ORCID and ISNI are pure person identifiers and should be in section "Person identifiers" Grimes2 (talk) 04:52, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

I wondered whether ORCID would be better placed in "Scientific databases"? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:32, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes, should be beside Google Scholar ID, Scopus etc. Grimes2 (talk) 08:53, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

 Done Grimes2 (talk) 09:20, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

I was wrong. ISNI is not a pure person identifier. Will move to "General" section. Grimes2 (talk) 09:31, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

ORCIDs have actually started to be used for research infrastructure rather than just people although it is early days and the use of DOIs is probably going to work better (see https://info.orcid.org/orcid-for-research-resources/). Gusfriend (talk) 21:35, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Suggested authorities

Belgium, Sweden

Dear Grimes2 and Martin, may I suggest the KBR person ID (P11249) as a national library addition for Belgium? It accurately links back to the Royal Library of Belgium's catalogue, for example: Albert Einstein.

I would also like to point out that the latest Swedish authority files are not being assigned a SELIBR ID (P906) numerical identifier, but are being assigned a Libris-URI (P5587) alphanumeric identifier which is being updated at VIAF and accurately links to the same page as that of the SELIBR ID (example this VIAF has this Libris-URI identifier added to its cluster in 2021, while a traditional SELIBR ID links back to this Libris-URI page anyway, like in this example). Is there any way we can merge the two under "Sweden" or start using the Libris-URI as the more dominant of the two so that we don't miss out on any new authorities?

Please let me know your thoughts on both my suggestions, thank you. Kind regards, Spinster300 (talk) 22:35, 10 March 2023 (UTC).

• Support Absolutely necessary addition. Grimes2 (talk) 07:46, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
• I have coded these in the sandbox (example below). You will notice that the Libris link has automatically suppressed the SELIBR link as requested. I was going to say that the KBR entry is surprisingly sparse for such a famous person, but I suppose national libraries get a free pass onto the template — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:39, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

  Dear Martin, thank you for those updates. Does this mean we are good to go? Kind regards, Spinster300 (talk) 06:44, 12 March 2023 (UTC).

  Y These will be deployed on next update — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:26, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

  Thank you, Martin. Kind regards, Spinster300 (talk) 18:48, 13 March 2023 (UTC).

   Added — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 22:17, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

  Dear Martin, that is great news, thank you! However, could you please check the live template over at Albert Einstein? I can see both the Libris and the SELIBR links as two separate "Sweden"s. The Libris link is not automatically suppressing the SELIBR link. This could lead to potential confusion. Kind regards, Spinster300 (talk) 12:24, 15 March 2023 (UTC).

  Not sure what happened because I did already code this in the sandbox but it was somehow overwritten with all the section changes. It's back in the sandbox again and will be deployed at next update — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:11, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

  Thank you for looking into this. Kind regards, Spinster300 (talk) 21:16, 15 March 2023 (UTC).

Georgia, India

Dear Grimes2 and Martin, may I also suggest the inclusion of non-American/Eurocentric additions to the Authority control template? Most libraries the VIAF database covers are from Europe or North America; leaving a vast majority of Asia and Africa where there is a sizeable population of English speakers. It took me some time to retrieve them, but to start off with, here is an example of William Shakespeare's authority record within the National Libraries of Georgia and India, respectively. Links to their authority database search pages are here: Georgia, and India. I am trying to search for more Asian/African countries that have authority control databases attached to their national library catalogues, but alas their websites are outdated and/or hard to navigate without a browser translator extension. I think we may need to create Wikidata properties for these identifiers as well. Please help me with these if possible, thank you. Kind regards, Spinster300 (talk) 13:13, 16 March 2023 (UTC).

Wait. These national libraries will present someday a formatter URL for a property ID. Grimes2 (talk) 07:29, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Wouldn't the formatter URL for India just be based on nationallibraryopac.nvli.in/cgi-bin/koha/opac-authoritiesdetail.pl?authid= with the regex for the id following it?

Obviously the URL would need to be translated into the proper regex format. I think that would be:

^https?:\/\/nationallibraryopac\.nvli\.in\/cgi-bin\/koha\/opac-authoritiesdetail\.pl\?authid=

Or have I misunderstood something?

Judging by the example given by Spinster300, the id has the form of a string of numbers; I'm getting a 503 error from the website so I can't check for other examples. If they're all like 698181, the id's regex should be straightforward. – Scyrme (talk) 19:58, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

As Grimes said. We would need corresponding properties for these to be created on Wikidata. There is a list at Wikidata:List of properties/unique identifier/authority control or you can propose new properties at Wikidata:Property proposal — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 14:46, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Portugal

Dear Grimes2 and Martin, thank you for your thoughts. I am not familiar with how Wikidata works. I will wait for these libraries to update their systems, I suppose. May I suggest the Portuguese National Library author ID (P1005) under "Portugal", in the meanwhile? Kind regards, Spinster300 (talk) 17:38, 18 March 2023 (UTC).

Added Portuguese National Library author ID (P1005) and Portuguese National Library work ID (P6373) to sandbox for review — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:51, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

1. Support: An obligation.
2. Wait: 29 out of 1,200,000 (0% complete).

Grimes2 (talk) 21:59, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Good point. Definitely wait on that one! — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:01, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

 Done Just to note that P1005 has been added — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:11, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Dear Martin, thank you! Kind regards, Spinster300 (talk) 10:39, 20 March 2023 (UTC).

Balkan States

Dear Grimes2 and Martin, I would like to propose the following identifiers for countries from the Balkans: CONOR.AL ID (P8848) (Albania), CONOR.BG ID (P8849) (Bulgaria), CONOR.KS ID (P8850) (Kosovo), CONOR.SI ID (P1280) (Slovenia), and CONOR.SR ID (P8851) (Serbia); you can find all five identifier links to their respective countries' union catalogues managed by COBISS.net. The example authority I would like to provide is Winston Churchill. Do you think these are up to the mark to be included?

I would also like to seek your aid in a Wikidata property proposal for the CONOR.CG ID from Montenegrin libraries. How does one go about this on Wikidata? Please advise, thank you, and kind regards, Spinster300 (talk) 12:08, 23 March 2023 (UTC).

If you go to Wikidata:Property proposal/Authority control and type the name in the box and press "Create request page" and then try to fill in the details on that page. I will help where I can — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 15:37, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

• Support Some "forgotten" national libraries. Grimes2 (talk) 13:31, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Many thanks, Grimes2. Kind regards, Spinster300 (talk) 05:48, 26 March 2023 (UTC).

More suggested authorities

Brazil

The National Library of Brazil (National Library of Brazil ID (P4619)) has a property with a formatter URL. Worth considering? – Scyrme (talk) 18:17, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

China (PRC)

The PRC appears to be absent; is there a reason for this? The relevant identifiers seem to be CALIS ID (P270) and NLC authorities (P1213) (as a note, the latter states that it is a "person" identifier, but this contradicted by one of the examples given which is for a book, namely the Three Character Classic). Both have a formater URL on Wikidata. I'm not sure which of those is more appropriate; the first is for the China Academic Library and Information System (CALIS) and the second is for the National Library of China. – Scyrme (talk) 17:59, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Cyprus

The Cyprus Library has Cyprus Library ID (P9250) with a formatter URL. Worth considering? – Scyrme (talk) 18:58, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

New Zealand

The National Library of New Zealand (National Library of New Zealand ID (P7682)) also has a property with a formatter URL which appears to be absent from AC. Worth considering? – Scyrme (talk) 18:51, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Slovakia, Hungary

It seems that the Slovak National Library (SNK ID (P9807)) is missing. Is there are reason for this? There is also a VIAF component (Slovak National Library (VIAF) ID (P7700)) related to the Slovak National Library, but I don't think that's a problem since NL CR AUT ID (P691) for the National Library of the Czech Republic is included but also appears to be associated with VIAF (although the VIAF formater URL isn't used here). – Scyrme (talk) 17:45, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Hungary is similar to Slovakia in that the National Széchényi Library has NSZL name authority ID (P3133) and NSZL (VIAF) ID (P951). – Scyrme (talk) 18:39, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

• Comment There are c. 200 countries in the world, most of them have a national library. Too much for AC, so we should select for quality. Grimes2 (talk) 20:55, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

  I don't think SNK ID (P9807) is particularly low quality. NSZL name authority ID (P3133) admittely seems less helpful. Or was this a general comment?

  While it's true that there are hundreds of national libraries, most of them don't have Wikidata properties yet which largely mitigates the problem.

  That said, perhaps it's worth considering intentionally not including (and removing) any identifiers which are accessible via VIAF (or via another "International" identifier)? That would reduce the need to be arbitrarily picky.

  I don't know if SNK ID (P9807) is entirely redundant with Slovak National Library (VIAF) ID (P7700). If it is redundant, then perhaps SNK ID (P9807) isn't needed. However, in that case shouldn't the inclusion of NL CR AUT ID (P691) be reconsidered given that it is also by a VIAF member? In the case of NL CR AUT ID (P691), I don't think there's a separate "(VIAF)" identifier unlike with the SNK ID and NSZL ID; I'm fairly sure it is redundant. – Scyrme (talk) 21:58, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

  I think they should all be added to the template, but perhaps they should not all display by default. Many of these national libraries will only be relevant for an article related to that country. Whitelists can be used to select all the identifiers from a certain country. With a bit of magic, we could automatically do this based on nationality of person, and other properties. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 22:16, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

  I think, that is the beginning of censorship. A Chinese dissident article could then have limited AC library information, compared to Putin's article?

  My proposal: All available national libraries for all articles.

Grimes2 (talk) 02:27, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Support – This makes sense to me. It helps readers disambiguate those libraries which are part of the VIAF and those which are not. But yes, we should include all national libraries for all articles, simply because we should not be the ones determining which ones are useful to which readers. Kind regards, Spinster300 (talk) 05:47, 26 March 2023 (UTC).

Censorship - really Grimes?? The issue at hand is compliance with the Wikipedia:External links guideline which states, among much else, that "Links ... should be kept to a minimum." As you correctly point out, we cannot include links to all 200 national libraries, so we may need to be selective. For articles about Slovenia or Slovenian people, a link to the Slovenia national library would be highly relevant and useful. But I would question its necessity and value on the Winston Churchill article — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:37, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Dashboard error

"Lua error: too many expensive function calls." in Wikipedia:Authority control/dashboard. --ted (talk) 22:11, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes I noticed this earlier. We had this before (see Template talk:Authority control/Archive 13#Lua error: too many expensive function calls) but things have been simplified a lot since then so I'm a bit surprised. I'll see if the code can be made more efficient — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:10, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Withdrawn IDs

World Heritage Site

wikilink: World Heritage Site

• Support looks useful and and obviously reliable — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:49, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose Normally all World Heritage Sites have an infobox with this link already in it. E.g. Sagrada Família has in the infobox the link "Reference: 320-005" which links to the same page as above. Fram (talk) 13:29, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
• Withdrawn Redundant. Fram's argument is convincing. Grimes2 (talk) 13:34, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

UK railway

• Withdrawn Redundant. Same link also present in the infobox. Grimes2 (talk) 13:09, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

  I have been thinking about making it possible for editors to display some identifiers but without them displaying by default. This could be achieved by having a default whitelist, which would contain all currently supported identifiers, but then we could add additional identifiers which are not on this whitelist, but could be activiated via |show=P722. Is there any interest in this? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:13, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

  Good idea, so we could hide for example RERO. Grimes2 (talk) 13:21, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

New York Times ID (P3221)

• Withdrawn Link collection. Grimes2 (talk) 08:52, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Guardian topic ID (P3106)

• Weakly opposed to these last two as they seem to be moving further away from the definition of an authority control into simply a collection of external links. I also think we have to be careful about being accused of bias if we display links from some media (e.g. Guardian, NYT) and not others — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:41, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Agree, both should be in External links.

The existing template is {{New York Times topic|new_id=person/susan-rice|name=Susan Rice}}

Result: Susan Rice collected news and commentary at The New York Times. and: Bill Gates collected news and commentary at The Guardian. Grimes2 (talk) 21:51, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

• Withdrawn Link collection. Grimes2 (talk) 08:53, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

People, abgeordnetenwatch.de politician ID (P5355)

wikilink: Parliamentwatch

• Comment German Parliamentwatch Grimes2 (talk) 09:40, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

This doesn't appear to be a bibliographical record/library resource, so its inclusion under "authority control" would be unusual. Also, the site is only of really use to German citizens, and I'm not sure what the point of including it in a template on the English-language Wikipedia would be. – Scyrme (talk) 16:00, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

It's a NGO, not very high reliability. Could be removed. Grimes2 (talk) 16:09, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

• Withdrawn No bibliographical/library resource. Grimes2 (talk) 16:58, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Nature, USGS earthquake ID (P3196)

wikilink: United States Geological Survey

• Withdrawn Redundant to infobox. Grimes2 (talk) 09:06, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

I actually think it would be better to get some of these identifiers out of infoboxes and into the authority control template. That's what we did with Template:Infobox lighthouse and it makes for a more reader-friendly infobox. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:16, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

It's a special parameter in the infobox earthquake: | anss-url. Grimes2 (talk) 10:53, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

People, Olympedia people ID (P8286)

• Comment Might be redundant to Template:Olympedia (template is used on approximately 9,000 pages). Grimes2 (talk) 15:03, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
• Withdrawn Redundant to section External links. Grimes2 (talk) 15:05, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

PubChem CID (P662)

Would it be appropriate to add PubChem in the form of PubChem CID (P662) to {{authority control}} (under §7, "Other")? Besides providing a wealth of data for a given chemical it also provides a "literature" section which effectively constitutes a library catalog of relevant academic material. Or would including it be stretching the scope of the template too much? – Scyrme (talk) 19:14, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Redundant. Already in the infobox of the compound.

Grimes2 (talk) 19:19, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Fair enough. – Scyrme (talk) 19:30, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

EU Transparency Register ID (P2657)

wikilink: EU Transparency Register

• Comment EU Lobby organizations Grimes2 (talk) 14:55, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
• Withdrawn

Issues with Musée d'Orsay identifiers

Wikipedia:Authority control/dashboard lists a link to the Category:Articles with faulty Musée d'Orsay identifiers along with Category:Articles with Musée d'Orsay identifiers populated by the Module:Authority control. However, the module exposes some technical issues when dealing with the Musée d'Orsay identifiers. In short, {{Pages with authority control identifiers}} is not working as expected on both categories. They should have {{Possibly empty category}} and {{Maintenance category}}. --ted (talk) 01:52, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Category needing attention

@MSGJ: For diagnosis, Articles with Musée d'Orsay identifiers, U: Categories listed here do not conform to any expected naming convention, rendering the template useless. The solution is to either remove the template from the category, or improve/update the module to accommodate the new category naming convention. Grimes2 (talk) 16:59, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes I am aware, but have been on holiday. I think it is due to the accent on the "e" but will look into it shortly — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:48, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

I think this is fixed now. I was wrong - it wasn't the accented character, it was the apostrophe that it didn't like! I made a few other improvements at the same time. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:04, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Confirmed. Grimes2 (talk) 10:16, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Emmy identifiers

Category:Articles with faulty Emmy identifiers: Some special characters causing problems, wrong pattern. Grimes2 (talk) 09:17, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

I can't think of a suitable pattern, so I think I will just remove it altogether — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:06, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

 Done — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 16:48, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Local parameters

Myself and User:Scyrme have been working on emptying Category:Pages using authority control with parameters which is now down to 0. In line with the road map discussed earlier, as soon as this is empty, or nearly empty, we can look at removing local parameters altogether. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:05, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

@MSGJ: What's the plan for when the category is emptied? Do you intend to simply have it deleted and remove the functionality, or will it be integrated into Category:Pages with authority control identifiers needing attention?

I ask because recently I've noticed that that occassionally a new article will end up in Category:Pages using authority control with parameters, apparently often one which has been recently translated from another language's Wikipedia where local parameters are still used. They've been easy to cleanup (simply delete the parameters and link the Wikidata item to the article if it hasn't already been done, and add the identifiers from the article to the item if they aren't already there). It could be helpful if new uses of local parameters were still collected somewhere. – Scyrme (talk) 17:39, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

My eventual aim is to remove the local parameters altogether, once all have been converted. As proposed by Gusfriend a transition period would be sensible (e.g. 3 months) when a warning message is displayed with a link explaining that local parameters are deprecated and how to connect the template to a Wikidata item and add the identifier there. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 22:17, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

It would be unhelpful if attempts to add local parameters were simply ignored when they could indicate that a Wikidata item needs to be made, merged, or linked with the English article, or that identifiers are missing from Wikidata. I don't object to removing local parameters, but would it not be possible to track something like "authority control with unknown parameters" (as is done for a number of other templates) more generally? That would still allow attempts to use local parameters to be found and fixed. (It would also pick up other errors like mistyped/capitalised parameters, which could be helpful.)

The transition period will help but not all editors will get the message, particularly if they contribute infrequently (to the English-language Wikipedia, at least) or usually only contribute things that don't require adding/changing {{authority control}}. – Scyrme (talk) 18:17, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

I have no problem with keeping the tracking category going indefinitely, as long as people want to keep working on them. The most common name for this kind of category is Category:Pages with authority control with unknown parameters so perhaps we can rename to that (and make it a subcategory of Category:Pages with authority control identifiers needing attention)? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:23, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't know how other templates handle tracking unknown parameters, I only know the categories that those articles end up in. I assumed that tracking any unknown parameters would involve implementing some kind of more generalised, less specific (and presumably simpler) code rather than just renaming? I don't have a problem with making it a subcategory. – Scyrme (talk) 18:58, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

For uses of this template where there is no Wikidata item available (e.g. non-notable subjects or where there insufficient detail to create a new item) we can substitute the template. I have created a substitutable version in the sandbox - just replace {{Authority control with {{subst:Authority control/sandbox This creates an edit like this — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:54, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

The category is clear except for a bunch of pages in P64's userspace. I have asked him/her what they would like to do with them — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 14:21, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

The category is clear! Will set out next proposed steps shortly ... — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:34, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Proposed roadmap

Please see proposed roadmap below — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:29, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Phase	Status	What happens
1	Done Nov '22 - Mar '23	Local parameters deprecated. Editors working on Category:Pages using authority control with parameters. Template continues to display local and wikidata values. Warning given in edit preview.
2	Underway	Category:Pages using authority control with parameters empty. Visual warning (with link to explanatory page) given on template. Link to export values to Wikidata (via QuickStatements) provided.
3	Not yet started	Local parameters no longer displayed. Visual warning (with link to explanatory page) given on template. Link to export values to Wikidata (via QuickStatements) provided.
4	Not yet started	Template ignores local parameters. Visual warning removed. Unknown parameters continued to be tracked indefinitely via Category:Pages with authority control with unknown parameters

Phase 2

In phase 2, a warning will be displayed on the template if an editor uses a local parameter. Ideas for the warning message are below.

• For an article in mainspace:

• For an article in mainspace or a page using |qid=, when the local parameter adds an identifier which is not in Wikidata. The QuickStatements link will be provided.

• For an article in mainspace, which is not yet connected to a Wikidata item.

(Need to find a suitable help page for this one.)

• For a page in draft or userspace, not using |qid=

— Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:51, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Looks good to me! – Scyrme (talk) 14:23, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

@MSGJ: why disallow local parameters to pages not connected to a Wikidata item? For a nascent article without a WD item, this doesn't seem beneficial.   ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)  16:21, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Because it is better if people connect to a wikidata item using |qid=. That's why we have spent months clearing out Category:Pages using authority control with parameters — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:04, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

This seems like a major change versus a low level of discussion and consensus. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:23, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

So wouldn't it be a good idea to have a category for AC's with parameters, but no connected Wikidata item?

I don't agree with the "Template ignores local parameters." part of #Proposed timeline's Phase 3, unless that only applies to articles already connected to Wikidata (and even then, it's a weak-agree). Pages not connected to Wikidata should always be allowed to display parameters.

~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)  20:04, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

IMHO, the one and only location for identifier is Wikidata. Grimes2 (talk) 07:00, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes, absolutely. We should be clear that anyone adding local parameters to this template is creating a maintenance task for another editor, so the sooner we can wean editors off this practice the better. Having said that, I believe that the vast majority of editors have already made the transition - we typically get a less than one new page per day landing in Category:Pages using authority control with parameters. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:18, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

There is absolutely nothing wrong with editors using local parameters if they have a reason, for example if the page is not connected to Wikidata. We should not disallow this. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:04, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

In those circumstances, why not encourage editors to connect it to Wikidata? If no suitable item exists to connect it with, why not encourage editors to create one? – Scyrme (talk) 16:38, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

"Encourage" does not mean "force". This change - breaking a highly used template without an associated strong consensus - forces editors to either create a Wikidata item or leave out identifiers entirely. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:05, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

I think we are definitely moving in this direction, and I'd like to think that we will be in a position some day when this will be entirely uncontroversial. However I do understand concerns that Wikipedia editors are not ready for this (I personally think they are, but it's certainly up for debate). So let's focus on the parts we agree on. Firstly, that putting identifiers on Wikidata is preferable, for a multitude of reasons. Secondly, that editors should be encouraged to add any identifiers to Wikidata and/or to connect invocations of this template on an unconnected page to a Wikidata item. Therefore I suggest the following: we run with the prominent warnings proposed above, but we do not stop displaying these local values on the template. I will adjust the roadmap accordingly, and also remove the suggested dates, as these are probably unhelpful and before moving any further down this road, consensus will be sought on this talk page. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:46, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

It would also be nice to collect some data on how many editors are still using local parameters and how many pages are being created with local parameters. Then we can base our future discussion on facts rather than gut instinct. Therefore I ask that anyone who encounters a page with local parameters can either note down the name of the page or editor below, that would be really helpful. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 16:20, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Pages using local parameters

• Draft:Peter Wehrheim 2 - restored draft - added qid
• User:MGR/sandbox - copy of the above - added qid
• Brett Sheehy - local parameter added by Michael Bednarek - exported to wikidata
• Jean Adams (epidemiologist) - local parameter added by Kj cheetham - merged Wikidata items where identifier was already recorded
• Draft:International Union of Marine Insurance - local parameter added by Woiakl - added qid
• Katharine Parton - local parameter added by Michael Bednarek - exported to Wikidata
• Helen Cowie (historian) - local parameters added by J Milburn - exported to Wikidata
• Draft:Scientific European - invalid parameter added by 84.71.61.249 - removed
• User:Patrick19652311/sandbox - local parameters added by Patrick19652311 - added qid
• Georg Duffing - redundant parameters added by Cosmia Nebula - removed
• Fritz Lau - redundant parameters added by Bermicourt - removed

Content layout break down

On this article I discovered a grey strip with a border at the bottom, which looks related to this template. Who can fix it? -- Great Brightstar (talk) 15:48, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

There was the issue with the succession box on the page. The {{s-end}} wasn't on a new line as it has to be to function, so the succession table wasn't closed properly. – BrandonXLF (talk) 17:01, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Localizable strings

See also: Template talk:Authority control/Archive 14 § Request

To simplify moving changes to another wiki, it would be beneficial to have all hard-coded strings in variables in a single place instead. Of course When there are existing practices such as naming of categories this isn't foolproof and you still need glue-code around those parts to generate strings appropriately. But many of the strings just need direct translation to be usable in another wiki and there's quite a few of them. Ipr1 (talk) 02:45, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes, this has been requested previously, and should be easily possible. I'm not sure of the usual best practice - do we just define all the strings at the beginning of the module or should they go into a separate module? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:41, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

The previous requester seemed to suggest that a submodule like Module:Authority control/i18n would be best. Personally I would put all this into the existing Module:Authority control/config code — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:46, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

I've started work on this: [1] — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:19, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

config.i18n.testcases

The length of config.i18n.testcases is no longer fixed and may vary depending on the localization. Could you please consider making the changes below?

From:

local testcases = (string.sub(title.subpageText,1,9) == config.i18n.testcases)

To:

local testcases = (string.sub(title.subpageText,1,mw.ustring.len(config.i18n.testcases)) == config.i18n.testcases)

Thanks. --ted (talk) 02:41, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes we can fix this. It might be easier just to check if subpageText == config.i18n.testcases as I'm not sure why we need to check the first n characters — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:45, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

I agree. The same goes for Module:Authority control (arts), Module:Authority control/staging, and Module:Authority control/documentation. --ted (talk) 08:44, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

I hope you never feel pressured, but I wonder when you plan to resolve the issue. When importing the module directly, the testcases variable is incompatible with many non-English Wikipedias. Thanks. --ted (talk) 02:11, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

I do not feel any pressure :) And I will do this when time allows. But I'm also not the only person who can do this. If you want to help you can make changes to the sandbox ... — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:31, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

This is done. Sorry, I was thinking this was a big job but actually it was a 5-min job :) — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:15, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Added value IDs

Here are some properties, that might give added value to the articles:

• World Heritage Site ID (P757)
• Structurae structure ID (P454)
• Flanders Arts Institute venue ID (P3820)
• StadiumDB ID (P5288)
• EBIDAT ID (P9725) (castles)
• UK railway station code (P4755)

Remark: I've checked, that the ID-links are human readable (not "technical") and give additional information to the user. Grimes2 (talk) 13:56, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestions. Would you be able to add them to Module:Authority control/config/sandbox and give an example of each? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 15:49, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

You have to make pattern. Grimes2 (talk) 23:39, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Yep, that's the most complicated part. Not essential at this stage though (and not even essential later, because these errors can be tracked on Wikidata more reliably). — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:01, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

The "other" secton is becoming quite crowded. Is there a better way to organise these identifiers into existing sections or should we consider additional sections? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:02, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes, for example "building identifier". Grimes2 (talk) 10:32, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Alt: "Location identifier" (more general) Grimes2 (talk) 09:23, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

To all editors who have contributed to this talk page in the past six months. @Scyrme, Fram, Ferdinando Scala, Robertsky, Jnestorius, Tom.Reding, David Eppstein, Luckyz, Gusfriend, and Spinster300: we currently have a large number of open requests for adding identifiers to this template. Please comment on the value of these links below if you have a chance — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:16, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Dear @Martin, I am very happy to take a look! Kind regards, Spinster300 (talk) 17:00, 4 March 2023 (UTC).

@Grimes2: It might be best to move the withdrawn proposals to a separate section rather than just cross them out so that the list of ones that still need attention can be made shorter and more focused. – Scyrme (talk) 23:44, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Dear Grimes2 and Martin, I would like to lend my support to adding the following identifiers, as they all seem like informative additions: Pleiades ID, Smithsonian volcano ID, BGCI garden ID, World Waterfall Database ID, Sycomore ID, Städel Museum artist ID, Museum of Modern Art artist ID, Pinakothek artist ID, Musée d'Orsay artist ID, Museo del Prado artist ID, National Gallery of Canada artist ID, BRAHMS artist ID, BRAHMS work ID, BMLO ID, Europeana entity, and Mérimée ID. Kind regards, Spinster300 (talk) 07:00, 12 March 2023 (UTC).

Thanks Spinster. Everyone: please can you check sections on proposed IDs below as section structure has significantly changed in the meantime — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:23, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

They should be fixed now (unless I messed something up), but the whitelists will need to be a amended; I didn't touch them. – Scyrme (talk) 20:10, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

I will be a bit tied up working on other templates for a while, but if you can put any agreed changes on /staging and give me a ping then I can copy them over — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:46, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

• @MSGJ: Added three to staging (Orsay, Prado, National Gallery of Canada). Grimes2 (talk) 11:51, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Structurae structure (P454)

wikilink: Structurae {{authority control/staging|qid=Q11277|show=P454}}

• Support, comprehensive and useful — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:11, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

 Added — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:41, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Structurae person ID (P2418)

{{authority control/staging|qid=Q60694}}

• Support, I guess this makes sense if we are including Structurae structure ID (P454) — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:13, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

 Added — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:41, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

StadiumDB identifier + Structurae

wikilink: StadiumDB.com

• Happy to support, looks fairly useful — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:42, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Doesn't work anymore. Wrong pattern? Grimes2 (talk) 20:15, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Oops, fixed — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:19, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

 Added — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:49, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

EBIDAT (castles)

• Comment only (in German). Grimes2 (talk) 09:05, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Looks good. Will this just be on German castles then, or does their database cover other countries? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:50, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

European Castle Institute (EBI):Germany, Denmark, Finland, Latvia, Netherlands, Austria, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Hungary. Grimes2 (talk) 13:07, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

 Added — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:49, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Theatre, EUTA theatre ID

• Looks like a good addition — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:51, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

 Added — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:50, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Is there an enwiki article for European Theatre Architecture or Arts and Theatre Institute? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 14:30, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

No. Grimes2 (talk) 14:40, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

EUTA person ID (P4534)

• Support – Looks like a sound addition. Spinster300 (talk) 06:47, 12 March 2023 (UTC).
• Added to staging sandbox for deployment next. There is no article for European Theatre Architecture. I am thinking should be compulsory for future additions to this template because it allows readers to find out what the identifier is for and who issues it — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:03, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

  European Theatre Architecture Grimes2 (talk) 16:07, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

   Added — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 22:14, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

History, Pleiades ID

• Changed section to 3 and added to /staging. Relevant article does not seem to exist unfortunately — Preceding unsigned comment added by MSGJ (talk • contribs)

Maybe we could replace wl by Pleiades (ancient places)? Grimes2 (talk) 13:21, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

On the /doc page you mean? Good idea — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:31, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

 Done, please check Template:Authority control/sandbox#List of identifiers — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:19, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

•  Added — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 22:15, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Nature, Smithsonian volcano ID (P1886)

wikilink: Global Volcanism Program

• Changed to section 3, relabelled to Global Volcanism Program, moved to /staging, awaiting any final comments — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:20, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

 Added — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 22:16, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Emmys person ID (P8381)

Suggested by Spinster wikilink: Emmy Awards

• Support Good find. Satis. Grimes2 (talk) 17:19, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Will be deployed on next update — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:15, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Emmy Awards is section People, Grammy Awards is section Artists. Both should be in same section: Artists. Grimes2 (talk) 07:38, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Nature, Botanical garden, BGCI garden ID (P5818)

wikilink: Botanic Gardens Conservation International

This one should be moved from "Artists" to "Geographic". Was probably missed due to only being in /sandbox not /staging. – Scyrme (talk) 19:23, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Will be added in next update — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:20, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

World Waterfall Database ID (P3326)

wikidata: World Waterfall Database

Same with this one. It's under "Artists" when it should be "Geographic". – Scyrme (talk) 19:25, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

It's in the section of the obsolete proposal for sections. Please fix these errors in sandbox. Grimes2 (talk) 19:29, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Will be added in next update — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:20, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

EU Transparency Register ID (P2657)

wikilink: EU Transparency Register

• Comment EU Lobby organizations Grimes2 (talk) 14:55, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Is this still required? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:47, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

No. 2806:290:c800:3743:d9c3:f277:dbf7:f633 has undone my removal. Grimes2 (talk) 09:29, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Sycomore ID (P1045)

wikilink: National Assembly (France)

• Will be added in next update — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 15:46, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

 Added — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:37, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Städel Museum artist ID (P4581)

wikilink: Städel

• Comment Artist IDs are available for (a few) other museums. Grimes2 (talk) 17:51, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

This one's the opposite of the others I commented on recently; it's labelled as "Geographic" but should be under "Artists". – Scyrme (talk) 19:26, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

• Ready for deployment next — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:36, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

   Added — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:37, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Museum of Modern Art artist ID (P2174)

wikilink: Museum of Modern Art

• Ready for deployment at next update — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:41, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

 Added — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:38, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Pinakothek artist ID (P4025)

wikilink: Alte Pinakothek, Neue Pinakothek?

• Comment Pinakothek has no identifier (empty field) in Template:Authority control/sandbox#List of identifiers. I would suggest Alte Pinakothek. Grimes2 (talk) 14:20, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

I think Bavarian State Painting Collections might be better? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:20, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

yes. Grimes2 (talk) 08:27, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

 Done. I created Pinakothek artist identifier (Q117257338) and Pinakothek (identifier) which redirects to Bavarian State Painting Collections — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:10, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

There seems to be a problem as a lot of these identifiers are currently broken. For example, see below. There is a brief comment at wikidata:Property_talk:P4025#New_id's but I don't think we can add this unless these are fixed — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:24, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Of course. Grimes2 (talk) 10:46, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Musée d'Orsay artist ID (P2268)

wikilink Musée d'Orsay

• Added to staging. Grimes2 (talk) 11:51, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
•  Added by Martin. Grimes2 (talk) 10:15, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Museo del Prado artist ID (P5321)

wikilink: Museo del Prado

• Comment Current identifier is is the museums website www.museodelprado.es. Better: Museo de Prado. Grimes2 (talk) 14:28, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

This can be achieved by creating a redirect‎ and linking it to Wikidata — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 16:38, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

• Added to staging. Grimes2 (talk) 11:51, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
•  Added by Martin. Grimes2 (talk) 10:15, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

National Gallery of Canada artist ID (P5368)

wikilink: National Gallery of Canada

• Added to staging. Grimes2 (talk) 11:51, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
•  Added by Martin. Grimes2 (talk) 10:16, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

BRAHMS artist ID (P5226)

• Identifier of an artist in the B.R.A.H.M.S. database, by the IRCAM (contemporary classical music)

• Added to staging Grimes2 (talk) 07:16, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
•  Added by Martin. Grimes2 (talk) 10:58, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

BRAHMS work ID (P5302)

• Identifier for a musical work in the B.R.A.H.M.S. database, by the IRCAM

• Added to staging Grimes2 (talk) 07:16, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
•  Added by Martin. Grimes2 (talk) 10:58, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

BMLO ID (P865)

• Bayerisches Musiker-Lexikon Online (Ludwig Maximilian University of Munich)

• Added to staging Grimes2 (talk) 07:16, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
•  Added by Martin. Grimes2 (talk) 10:58, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Europeana entity (P7704)

wikilink: Europeana

• Added to staging Grimes2 (talk) 11:04, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Mérimée ID (P380)

wikilink: Base Mérimée

• Added to staging Grimes2 (talk) 11:04, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Deutsche Synchronkartei person ID (P11646)

wikilink: Deutsche Synchronkartei

• Added to staging Grimes2 (talk) 11:04, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Deutsche Bahn station code (P8671)

wikilink: Deutsche Bahn

• Comment Link not in infobox. Useful for me. Grimes2 (talk) 16:00, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Leopoldina member ID (new) (P10299)

wikilink: German National Academy of Sciences Leopoldina

ADK member ID (P4114)

wililink: Academy of Arts, Berlin

LexM ID (P9692)

wikilink: Lexikon verfolgter Musiker und Musikerinnen der NS-Zeit

Admiralty number

The "Admiralty" property doesn't appear to have an formatter URL and authority control simply displays the id without a link. Is this intentional? It doesn't seem consistent with the purpose of the template. – Scyrme (talk) 19:09, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

There is no formatter URL to a freely available database. However it is an important identifier for lighthouses. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 19:27, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Being an important identifier doesn't mean it falls within the scope of AC. Perhaps a field for it should be added to {{Infobox lighthouse}} instead? (Similar to how chemical articles include important identifiers in the infobox rather than AC, including some that don't have URLs.) – Scyrme (talk) 20:44, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

It's interesting that you suggest this, because we have done the exact opposite on Infobox lighthouse. Many identifiers (admiralty, CCG, USCG, NGA, ARLHS, etc.) used to be displayed in the infobox - these were moved to the now deleted {{Lighthouse identifiers}} and eventually merged into this template. I feel quite strongly that identifiers and meta-data do not belong in infoboxes, which are designed to serve a casual reader with the "key features of the page's subject". Identifiers are more of use to serious researchers and editors/maintainers of the article, and are better kept in Wikidata or at the foot of the article in a template such as this one. I'm not aware of any guideline that says identifiers have to be linked to a freely accessible online database via a URL in order to be in scope - can you clarify where you are getting this from? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 06:43, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Getting it from the fact that until this was added every other id was linked setting a very clear precedent regarding what belongs in the template, from Wikipedia:Authority control and Help:Authority control which both refer to "links" with the latter discussing the template primarily in terms of "linking to bibliographical records", and from the fact that a lack of a formatter URL was used as a reason against proposals in discussions above.

Earlier in the proposals to add identifiers the inclusion of an identifier in infoboxes was used as reason to reject the proposal as it would be redundant. Are you now suggesting those identifiers be moved out of infoboxes into AC? Are you also going to merge {{Chembox Identifiers}} with AC? Along with including any and all "important" identifiers, this could make AC a clutter magnet.

I'm not sure I agree with the approach of making AC the only place for identifiers. Many "important" identifiers aren't bibliographic resources/databases/catalogs. I think in some cases templates like {{Chembox Identifiers}} are warranted. If you're worried about them taking up space for readers who wouldn't benefit much from them, why not simply make those infobox templates collapsible? (In-fact, I actually think that would be very helpful for Chemistry-related infobox sub-templates in general; chemistry infoboxes can get very long. The one on Sodium acetate, for example, spans the entire length of the article. I'm not sure why that hasn't already been done.) – Scyrme (talk) 17:53, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Having a link is preferable, but I don't agree that the lack of a link is a deal-breaker for this template. We recently added ISIL, you may recall. Some of these have links and some do not. Nobody raised objections about showing these unlinked. Importantly, I don't think we should change our templates based on whether a database chooses to include a freely available link or not. Just as an example, suppose FAST suddenly decided to put its database behind a paywall - does that mean we should respond by removing this identifier from our template? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:13, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

What would be the alternatives in this case? We could move it back to the infobox, which I oppose for reasons given above. A casual reader does not need to know that a lighthouse has code D4524.8, they can scroll down if they need details like this. We could resurrect {{Lighthouse identifiers}}, which would be the same kind of template as this, in exactly the same place in the article. I'm not sure what that would achieve? Regarding the other examples you give (re WP:OTHERSTUFF), yes it might be worth considering moving these templates to the bottom of the article, or even merging them into this template. I would probably support such moves, but I don't necessarily have time to look into this, as my interests lay with lighthouses. In fact it was lighthouse identifiers that got me interested in this template in the first place! — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:21, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

I didn't object because I didn't notice.

If an identifier moved behind a paywall then its inclusion could be reassessed, although it would probably be worth linking despite the paywall. What use is the identifier without the link to the catalogue/database where its used? I don't necessarily object to paywalled links if they're especially helpful, although others might. Could handle paywalls similar to how journal references do, with the padlock icon and tooltip on the icon. That would be my suggestion. I don't really have a strong opinion about it.

Regardless, I don't necessarily object to creating templates like {{Taxonbar}} that go at the bottom of an article instead, if you strongly object to their inclusion in infoboxes even in collapsible sections. My objection is to making AC the only place for identifiers. Some identifiers simply don't belong there (for example, E numbers which are included in {{Chembox Identifiers}} have no place in a template meant for bibliographic resources). – Scyrme (talk) 11:49, 2 May 2023 (UTC)