Template:Did you know nominations/Women in Albania
- The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: rejected by Bloom6132 (talk) 00:59, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
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Closing note: withdrawn by nominator.
Women in Albania
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- ... that some Albanian women could become head of a family after an oath of virginity?
Created by AnakngAraw (talk). Nominated by Victuallers (talk) at 09:11, 27 October 2013 (UTC).
- The article is new and long enough. The hook does not correspond with the text of the article which says that this practice is something that could happen in the past. I am also concerned about two things. First, the article presents Albanian society in negative context concerning women by giving too much weight to the negative treatment of women in the society or to outdated customs which are present probably only in mountainous region on the north. I think that addition of positive assertions about women in Albania and some statistical data would make article more balanced. Second, I am uncertain about the topic, precisely about appropriateness of having separate articles for women in some state. This is something I will seek for additional opinion on appropriate noticeboard. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:12, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
- I have changed "can" to "could" to address one of your concerns as the hook does describe what appears to be a historic tradition. Some balance would be useful, maybe the author has some knowledge of this. The article does make clear that the tradition are in some areas, but it also mentions that operations to restore hymens are taking place in urban areas. I agree that this article could have a more rounded approach and hopefully this will happen as a result of the DYK process. Victuallers (talk) 22:59, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks. I am afraid that hook is still wrong. First, the picture probably shows two Slav (non-Albanian) women from Rožaje in Montenegro. Even if they were from Albania, I am uncertain if it is appropriate to assert that they could take oath of virginity. First there is an issue of BLP (license of the image is unclear because the source is art society "Vrelo Ibra"), second it would be difficult to follow wp:verify in this case. Third, women in Albania who were not virgins could not take such oath and be accepted as men. Finally, I believe that many women in Albania could have became head of a family even if they did not took oath of virginity (i.e. in case some woman becomes a widow or her husband is imprisoned for many years, which was a frequent practice in Communist Albania under Enver Hoxha, or if head of the family is abroad for many years working in Greece, Switzerland,....). I think that picture should be replaced with some picture like this or removed. The text of the hook (and article) should reflect what source says. It refers to unmarried women in the family whose patriarch died with no male heirs. In most cases only those women (supposedly virgins by default) could take oath of virginity and "take on the role of men". The point is that they were accepted as men by the society. In some cases their father would be still alive, so the oath would not automatically mean they would became head of the family. Therefore I propose rewording of the hook. Maybe something like this:
- ALT1: ... that
someAlbanian women could take on the role of men after an oath of virginity?
- ALT1: ... that
- --Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:55, 28 October 2013 (UTC)h men
- Thanks. I am afraid that hook is still wrong. First, the picture probably shows two Slav (non-Albanian) women from Rožaje in Montenegro. Even if they were from Albania, I am uncertain if it is appropriate to assert that they could take oath of virginity. First there is an issue of BLP (license of the image is unclear because the source is art society "Vrelo Ibra"), second it would be difficult to follow wp:verify in this case. Third, women in Albania who were not virgins could not take such oath and be accepted as men. Finally, I believe that many women in Albania could have became head of a family even if they did not took oath of virginity (i.e. in case some woman becomes a widow or her husband is imprisoned for many years, which was a frequent practice in Communist Albania under Enver Hoxha, or if head of the family is abroad for many years working in Greece, Switzerland,....). I think that picture should be replaced with some picture like this or removed. The text of the hook (and article) should reflect what source says. It refers to unmarried women in the family whose patriarch died with no male heirs. In most cases only those women (supposedly virgins by default) could take oath of virginity and "take on the role of men". The point is that they were accepted as men by the society. In some cases their father would be still alive, so the oath would not automatically mean they would became head of the family. Therefore I propose rewording of the hook. Maybe something like this:
- I have changed the hook - although I feel it is true to say that "English men can be airline pilots" ... without having to say "some" because there are some "English men" that are blind or don't like heights. I think the "some" is unnecessary but it does no harm so I have included it in the first hook and I've removed the picture. Can I suggest you help the author with the article if you have time? Either hook seems fine to me Victuallers (talk) 15:44, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- The point was more on "the role of men" than "some" women.
- I was going to add some more information about women in Albania which would reduce negativeness of the article as soon as it is clear that this kind of article is appropriate. After having additional input here I think it is safe to conclude it is.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:32, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
After addition of more not so negative text and removal of the image I confirm this nomination is ok. Both original hook and Alt1 (which is my favorite). Thank you Victuallers.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:35, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
I have pulled this one from the queue due to concerns about the article's accuracy, neutrality, completeness and sourcing. The main source for the article is of questionable reliability, many other sources are almost 20 years old, a New York Times article is misrepresented to state that Albanian women are tradition-bound when the source if anything emphasizes the opposite, while overall coverage of the topic is haphazard and IMO quite inadequate. This article would need a major overhaul before it could be considered ready for mainpage exposure. Gatoclass (talk) 02:21, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
- looks like this article has failed to be improved by the DYK process as I hoped. A pity as I suspect we can gain DYK editors by supporting them through this process. Victuallers (talk) 09:57, 11 November 2013 (UTC)