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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 23:29, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Wolfgang Rennert

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  • Reviewed: to come Black-collared starling
  • Comment: Confession: we are late, I forgot that LouisAlain created this already on 11 October. There would be enough material for more expansion, but it seems a bit unfair to other great conductors. IRA, please?

Created by LouisAlain (talk) and Gerda Arendt (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 13:53, 20 October 2018 (UTC).

  • I think this could be accepted per IAR, but the hook doesn't really seem interesting to a broad audience. Non-opera fans probably can't appreciate how conducting at the Frankfurt Opera is a big deal. Perhaps another hook can be suggested here, more about his actual work? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 02:11, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
They can nonetheless be astonished that someone was working in both West and East then, and conducted several premieres, and on the side learn about the Franfurt Opera, which has been named Opera house of the year just as often as the three operas in Berlin together, including 2018. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:49, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
Gerda Arendt - I have no problem accepting this as being a touch late, but do agree that this hook might be a bit narrowly focused. Perhaps an ALT incorporating this happening during the Cold War and that Rennert worked in both East and West Germany? Best, Mifter (talk) 05:32, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
Well, I hate to mention war all the time, I think East and West Germany are no good names for the political situation, and Fram will come (as for Leininger, where we tried to explain something to clarify the hook), saying the source doesn't mention this. Rennert was a creative person, not a politician. I believe that mentioning East Berlin says enough. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:04, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
  • I think the best way to move forward with this nomination is to focus only on the Frankfurt Opera, and somehow tying how performing there is a big deal in the opera world. Right now it's not really an accessible hook. Perhaps something like: "... that Wolfgang Rennert conducted several world premieres of operas at the Frankfurt Opera, which..."? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 03:49, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
Please no. Look in the Recent additions for Frankfurt Opera, - it's well established and it's importance doesn't belong into the hook about this person. We could end the hook after saying that he premiered several operas, because few did, but I think that a bit of context is better, and that he worked in East and West is RARE. However links to the political entities are unwantes, - the opera houses stand for them. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:30, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
@Mifter: Thoughts? Do you have any more suggestions on what can be done here? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 14:37, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
Instead of Recent additions, you could look at Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera/DYK Archive. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:32, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
  • If you want emphasis on him performing in both West and East Berlin, how about:
ALT ... that Wolfgang Rennert conducted several world premieres of operas at both the Frankfurt Opera and in East Berlin?
Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 23:54, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
Wouldn't that read as if he did several in East Berlin, which he didn't? And why not name the Staatsoper, because I'm afraid the general reader doesn't know which of Berlin's three major opera houses was then in the East? Also: I think the little word "then" adds a hint at a past. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:37, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Honestly there really doesn't seem to be much else that can be used for hook suggestions. The only way this can work is if some context in the hook is given as to exactly how performing at the Frankfurt Opera is a big deal. Most non-opera fans would not know why, and thus wouldn't care. The only other suggestion I can think of is something along the likes of "DYK that Wolfgang Rennert performed in both West and East Berlin during the Cold War?", which could be of interest to history buffs at the very least. It's your call: if there's nothing else that can be done here, I'm afraid that I will have to mark this for closure. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 23:40, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
We could go a different direction and focus on his expertise and work abroad.
ALT2 ... that Wolfgang Rennert was regarded as a specialist in Mozart, Wagner, and Strauss and conducted engagements at the Royal Opera House, San Francisco Opera, and Dallas Opera, among others?
Best, Mifter (talk) 00:10, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
Nice approach, only nothing we couldn't also say about other people. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 00:14, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
That may be true, but if it is an interesting hook then wouldn't it work? For example, just because there have been multiple presidents/senators/hockey players/etc. who have done similar things, it doesn't necessarily make their individual actions less interesting to the average, non-expert, reader. I'm of course, open to any suggestions though. Best, Mifter (talk) 04:28, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
Just that Mozart, Wagner and Strauss are about the most commonplace composers, - no links to them, please, if we can raise attention to new info. And why mention Dallas, which was an exception for him, when we can have where he spent his reguöar time, to give him a place, not only a time?
ALT3: ... that Wolfgang Rennert conducted world premieres, of Louise Talma's Die Alkestiade at the Frankfurt Opera, and of Rainer Kunad's Sabellicus at the Staatsoper Berlin, then in East Berlin?
I promise to improve the composer articles, and will perhaps even write about the operas, all needed also for a great soprano, and a gread director. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:43, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

- Length, Earwigs, and QPQ check, date is fine per above. Foreign language refs are AGF. ALT3 approved. Best, Mifter (talk) 23:06, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

I don't think you should give one opera house in the hook its German title and the other its English name. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:44, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
Interestingly, the article page titles are split as well, though the opposite way as in this hook. I've updated the hook for to use the English names for both, good catch Cwmhiraeth. Mifter (talk) 07:50, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
Cwmhiraeth, Mifter: guess what, I did it on purpose. You can say Oper Frankfurt if you prefer, but I think we need to distinguish in Berlin, where Deutsche Oper was West, Staatsoper and Komische Oper were East, Berlin State Opera could be anywhere. Our article has a German name, Staatsoper unter den Linden, lets use it to be clear to those who know the difference. ("Unter den Linden" was added after reunification, so that part not in this hook.) Btw, the Frankfurt opera also has a German name but impossibe ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:23, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
I don't have a strong opinion either way regarding using a mix of names or only the English translations. Cwmhiraeth, any thoughts? Best, Mifter (talk) 21:28, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
I mentioned it because it is sure to be brought up by others when in the queue. I see that "Frankfurt Opera" links appropriately to Opern- und Schauspielhaus Frankfurt, while "Staatsoper Berlin" links to Berlin State Opera, which is an opera company and not a building. Would it not be better to have
Only that Opern- und Schauspielhaus Frankfurt is a building. Our articles are not consistent, and we don't have to pretend in hooks that they are, imho. I strongly favour Staatsoper, as explained above. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:58, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
  • Until we standardize all the German opera and opera house titles, the links in the hook should be enough for readers to figure things out. Promoting now. Yoninah (talk) 23:29, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
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