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Template:Did you know nominations/William Lovelady

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 00:52, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

William Lovelady

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Created by NBeale (talk) and Gerda Arendt (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 22:50, 24 April 2021 (UTC).

  • A few more hook candidates: Joofjoof (talk) 07:28, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
  • ALT0b:... that William Lovelady set Psalm 104 as a cantata on a request by the Duke of Edinburgh? Source: several
  • ALT1:... that William Lovelady composed Incantations for solo guitar after his song "One More Reggae for the Road" became a hit? Source: several
    Thank you, but I find it worth saying that The Duke favoured a composer who came from a guitar and incantations background, - striking ALT0b as too one-sided. He was not the typical cantata-psalm-person. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:00, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
    Also: please find a way to mention Psalm 104 in some ALT2 based on ALT1, because I try what I can to mention the psalms, in memory of Yoninah. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:02, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
    • Ah, I see. RIP Yoninah (and Prince Philip). Joofjoof (talk) 08:28, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
Kingsif (talk) 12:14, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
I'd like to see a citation for that the Duke also requesting incatations. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:32, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
If it isn't then you're trying to present two unrelated facts in the hook. Just pick one? Do you want to talk about Philip and Psalm 104 or about Lovelady making classical music for guitar? Kingsif (talk) 14:26, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
No, I want to describe a wide wange, and the Duke's taste. It's almost quirky that he didn't want the psalm set by some church musician, but a guitar music writer. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:11, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
@Gerda Arendt: That could be easily achieved by just saying it rather than adding a different fact and hoping people put it together? E.g. ALT2: ... that on request of Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, William Lovelady, known for his guitar compositions, set Psalm 104 as a cantata? - Kingsif (talk) 20:49, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
Thank you for the offer. Can you as easily turn it around so that the Duke doesn't get the hits, but the composer? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:53, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
I also miss "Incantations", - guitar music is overly general and harmless. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:55, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
Perhaps:
ALT2a ... that William Lovelady set Psalm 104 as a cantata on request of Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 07:37, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
Sorry, but we need a review, not another version of what was discussed above. Can you please include how unlikely a candidate he was for that request? As the original hook tried. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:23, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
I'm not really sure what you're asking for with regards to the hook. ALT2a was a revision of ALT2, which per your request was changed in such a way that Lovelady came first. I'm also not sure if Incantations needs to be in the hook given that we don't even have an article on it, but if it's your preference that they be mentioned, then perhaps:
ALT2c ... that William Lovelady, known for his guitar compositions Incantations, set Psalm 104 as a cantata on request of Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh?
ALT2d ... that William Lovelady, known for his Incantations, set Psalm 104 as a cantata on request of Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh?
Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 08:46, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
Can you please add "known for" in the article, with a citation. This person was soooo little known until this funeral, that I'd a hard time to do that. I think Incantations, evoking primitive rituals, at least for me, are nice and quirky in the contects of Christian music, but "known for"? He wrote several, and they became recorded. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:30, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
ALT0a: ... that William Lovelady composed Incantations for guitar, and, on a request by the Duke of Edinburgh, set Psalm 104 as a cantata? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:33, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
Kingsif already mentioned above that ALT0 and variants are trying to explain two hook facts and thus didn't flow very well. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 11:30, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
It's one fact: the Duke chose someone who was more or less unknown, composing and playing guitar and singing/writing Pop songs, for writing that piece of church music for his birthdays and other functions at Windsor Castle. More elegant wording welcome, but don't don't tell me that's two facts, please. The fact of writing a cantata on a psalm without that contrast is boring, imho. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:36, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
The fact of writing a cantata on a psalm without that contrast is boring, imho. - the hook isn't for you, though, and how many people reading DYK do you actually expect even know what a cantata is, let alone how it relates to a psalm and how that relates to guitar music. Do you think it will be boring to other people? (And it is two facts because of how you're using active voice to say Lovelady composed guitar music - there are passive ways of establishing the difference, like in my suggestion above - and because they can be read separately and aren't explicitly connected - people with processing disorders or even just those a little slow at comprehension aren't going to see how the parts relate.) It is interesting that a pop guitar composer did some church music, and that Prince Philip requested someone relatively unknown, but putting it all in one hook won't be that easy. Kingsif (talk) 12:17, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
Personally I thought the Prince Philip angle was always the more hooky part and the one that would raise the most interest. There's nothing wrong with mentioning Incantations and there are several ways to include that in the hook, but as Kingsif said it's too clunky to try to juggle two different hook facts at the same time, plus the nuance of him being obscure is difficult to mention anyway. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 12:42, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
You know that English is not my native tongue, and I hope you know that I tried. I was taught that active voice is better than passive, - do you tell me otherwise? Incantations has an "obscure" / "ancient rites" connatations, - do you tell me that's wrong. We can drop cantata. (But after more than 100 hooks about Bach cantatas, a regular DYK reader will know what a cantata is). People interested will likely have followed the funeral, and may remember that it was sung, and cantata means just "chanted music". I wanted to know who that Mr. Lovelady was, and the hook tries to give an answer. (I didn't watch it, but as Schmücke dich, o liebe Seele was mentioned on my talk I became interested in the two pieces commissioned for joyful celebrations (which a hook says about the other piece, please don't suggest to repeat that), and listened to those. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:49, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
Whether or not a hook is active or passive doesn't matter too much, what matters is how it flows. While the active voice is usually preferred, some hooks work better passive. It really depends on the circumstances and we don't have strict rules about it. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 01:48, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
  • Full review still needed. Please, no comments about hooks alone until that's done; there's no point if the article doesn't meet the other criteria. Many thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:39, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
  • Article does appear to meet requirements, no close paraphrasing was found, all relevant stuff is cited, and a QPQ was given. The only issue at the moment is the hook wording. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 01:11, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
  • As there has been no movement in over a week I'm going ahead and approving ALT2c; although I'm aware I proposed it, it is more-or-less a rewording of ALT2, which is itself a rewording of the original hook, and at least one other editor has suggested that the direction that ALT2 and its variations are the best way forward. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:23, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
    Repeating: ALT2c is a fine hook, but please provide a source for that he is known for Incantations. I'd like to avoid ERRORS. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:34, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
Perhaps:
ALT2e ... that William Lovelady, who wrote guitar compositions Incantations, set Psalm 104 as a cantata on request of Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh?
If you're okay with this, we will need a new reviewer. It's somewhat based on ALT0a but takes into account Kingsif's comments. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:31, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
I'm fine with this, striking the original. I hope you forgive me that I'm unable to see the slight difference as relevant. The Duke's centenary would have been good for this, but at least we had the other commissioned piece, chapel pictured that day. - I removed "the" from your proposal, - there are many compositions named Incantation, and there may be others for guitar. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:05, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
  • New reviewer needed to check ALT2e. Have struck all hooks with "known" in it, including the previously approved ALT2c. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:25, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
  • Wish I could approve 2e, but something about the grammar bothers me.
ALT2f ... that William Lovelady, who wrote Incantations for guitar, set Psalm 104 as a cantata on a request from Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh? Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 16:58, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
That sounds good. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 06:42, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
On second thought, while I am willing to approve ALT2f, I'm also wondering if a simpler alternative hook which simply goes
Alt2g "... that William Lovelady set Psalm 104 as a cantata on a request from Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh?" would also work. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:25, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
We'd loose completely what an unlikely candidate the composer was for such a request. I have the feeling that I said so already above, but no time to check. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:11, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
This is just a personal opinion but I always thought that him being asked by Prince Philip was the interesting part, rather than him being obscure. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:16, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
See above "but I find it worth saying that The Duke favoured a composer who came from a guitar and incantations background, - striking ALT0b as too one-sided." - The Duke commissioned from Benjamin Britten, sort of expected, and the no-name Mr. Lovelady, sort of a surprise, and worth mentioning. Sorry about the repetition. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:15, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Approving Alt2f, though several others would have worked. --evrik (talk) 01:57, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
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