Template:Did you know nominations/Wilhelm Busch

The following is an archived discussion of Wilhelm Busch's DYK nomination. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page; such as this archived nomination"s (talk) page, the nominated article's (talk) page, or the Did you know (talk) page. Unless there is consensus to re-open the archived discussion here. No further edits should be made to this page. See the talk page guidelines for (more) information.

The result was: promoted by PumpkinSky talk 11:13, 27 April 2013 (UTC).

Wilhelm Busch

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... that in Wilhelm Busch's stories, sharp pencils pierce through models, thieves are spiced by umbrellas, tailors guillotine using scissor, rascals are pulverized to corn, drunkards carbonise themselves, animals defecate while being tormented?
ALT2:... that during the Nazi era, Busch was known as an "ethnic seer"?

ALT3:... that Busch abandoned studying at the Polytechnic Hanover to move to several art academies, none on which he finished?
ALT4:... that Busch is Moritz?
Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (Tchaikovsky)

Created by Tomcat7 (talk). Self nominated at 09:24, 1 April 2013 (UTC).

If possible it should appear on 15 April.--Tomcat (7) 09:26, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Tomcat7, the original hook, at 240 characters, is way over the maximum, so I've struck it. ALT2 and ALT3 do not have any direct link to the article, and need one. Can you please fix those, and if you like, come up with a shorter version of the original hook that's under 200 characters? Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:10, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

substantial expansion on good sources, great detail! I wonder if a hook could say more about him, showing his typical art and mentioning his influence on comics? Of the hooks proposed, I would go for a modified ALT3, but it would need a link to the University and a source for the name at the time right behind it, and sources for all later abandoning:

ALT5:... that Wilhelm Busch (self portrait pictured) abandoned studying at the Polytechnic Hanover to move to several art academies, none on which he finished? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:31, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

I propose something like:

ALT6:... that Wilhelm Busch's (self portrait pictured) stories, especially Max and Moritz, have influenced comics so much that he was given the honorific "Forefather of Comics"?

Good approach, and sourced. Can we say something more precise than "stories", because for those who don't know them, it's too weak? # The source tells me "was named" rather than "given the honorific". # Is there a free pic from a story? If not, mention (self portrait pictured). - You may want to shorten it for more quirkyness, "influenced" and "forefather" say more or less the same, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:13, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

How about:

ALT7:... that Wilhelm Busch is considered the forefather of comics?--Tomcat (7) 10:03, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

ALT8:... that Wilhelm Busch, who created Max und Moritz (pictured), has been considered a forefather of comics? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:01, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

I oppose ALT8, because the subject is Busch, not Max and Moritz.--Tomcat (7) 11:08, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Start over. Accepted. I oppose ALT7, because it doesn't tell the uninitiated reader anything about Busch (time frame, work), but reduces the man to comics, as ALT3 reduces him to someone who doesn't finish his studies. I still think showing his typical (!) work in a picture would serve readers who have no idea what he did. How about

ALT9:... that Wilhelm Busch (self portrait pictured), who created Max und Moritz in 1865, has been considered a forefather of comics? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:20, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

I support ALT 9. I am a little worried if one source is enough for such a claim. Regards.--Tomcat (7) 19:24, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Needs a new reviewer to check the various unstruck ALT hooks, since Gerda (the initial reviewer) has proposed most of them. BlueMoonset (talk) 13:36, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

I politely disagree, "forefather of comics" and the picture were suggested by Tomcat7, and there is simply no doubt that he is the creator of Max und Moritz and in which year. I would not have struck ALT8 only because the author opposes ;) - But of course more eyes are good, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:13, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
We both choose ALT 9, and the unstruck hooks are theoretically strucked out. --Tomcat (7) 10:30, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

I would approve ALT9, but am reluctant if "Needs a new reviewer" stays, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:04, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

As ALT9 has a new fact that has been added by Gerda, "in 1865", someone who is neither Gerda nor the article's creator needs to review the hook and confirm that new fact is properly sourced. I have no problem with AGFing the Max und Moritz, since Gerda has already said it was sourced in her review of Tomcat7's ALT6. I have struck ALT5 and ALT6, since Tomcat7 says they're "theoretically" struck: better to be sure that a promoter doesn't mistake them for unstruck. BlueMoonset (talk) 14:08, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
I just checked, thinking to quickly approve the hook rather than have this delayed further, but the 1865 fact does not have an inline citation that I can find in the article, so approval is being withheld until one has been provided. I'm also wondering why "Max und Moritz" is being used in the hook since the Busch article exclusively calls the work "Max and Moritz". If the article doesn't use "und", the hook shouldn't either. (This is a perfect example of why rule WP:DYKSG#H2 is there: it's important to have another set of eyes to doublecheck.) BlueMoonset (talk) 14:24, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Would Wikisource be acceptable as a citation? I would like a date to clarify how early it was. - He created the German language work in German, I don't know who created an English version when. We could pipe link, if you wish, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:22, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Does ref 15 cover the 1865 issue? GLAD to see this article! I LOVE Busch's work. Bluemoonset, we should AGF the offline source.PumpkinSky talk 21:30, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

I added a reference and I agree with Moon regarding the German title.--Tomcat (7) 19:40, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Let me understand: you want to say "He created Max and Moritz."? - He didn't. I have no idea if he even spoke English. You will need a different hook or a different reviewer, but that seems wanted anyway. In FAs Balzac and Kafka, the works are given in the language of the authors. If FA quality is your goal, you may want to consider to change. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:03, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

ps: In the list of works in the article, all works but this one are in German, that looks inconsistent to me --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:41, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Agree with Gerda. PumpkinSky talk 21:58, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

I fully disagree. Gerda, this is the English Wikipedia, so we should use English titles. All other works are in German simply because there were more than one translations and not all of his works were translated, meaning that if I translate some works into English there will be no consistency.--Tomcat (7) 09:05, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

There can be easy consistency if you list Max und Moritz in German. He created a piece of poetry in German. period. Btw, you should not translate titles, but use translations from sources. - This is the English Wikipedia, sure, look at List of Bach cantatas, their article names were plain German when I came here, - at least I added BWV to make a connection to Bach. Look at Kafka: all his works have English article titles! However, speaking of him writing them, they are pipe-linked to the German originals, - Kafka didn't write in English. Nor did Busch--Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:35, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Fine, I changed Max and Moritz to Max und Moritz in the bibliography section.--Tomcat (7) 13:37, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

I'd like an assessment from the reviewer. Where is this article now, in terms of climbing the ladder to approval? —♦♦ AMBER^(ЯʘCK) 08:57, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Reviewer says, ALT9 is fine. But Bluemoonset says it needs another reviewer, because I suggested it, derived from one by the nominator. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:11, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I've reviewed this and I think this article is nearly ready. The one thing it really does need is consistency with Max and Moritz (as already expressed before). The hook says "Max und Moritz", but in the text "Max und Moritz" and "Max and Moritz" are both used. They all need to be the same. Once that happens, I'll flip to {{DYKtick}}.—♦♦ AMBER^(ЯʘCK) 07:51, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

The English titles should be used for English readers, the original titles may be noted in some way. As I have already explained, Busch appears to be almost alien to English readers; it appears that the only story they barely know is Max and Moritz. If every story would have been translated, I would not write the original titles. In the English biography it is stated that translations into English were mostly made by Germans or immigrants. Walter Arndt offers a few stories, but there had been translations which did not match with his translations, eg "Die fromme Helene".--Tomcat (7) 13:26, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

The problem with the article now is now that both Max und Moritz and Max and Moritz are used interchangeably. You need to pick one.—♦♦ AMBER^(ЯʘCK) 14:05, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

The English title is used, except in the bibliography list, which is fine per above.--Tomcat (7) 14:13, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Alright then for ALT9. —♦♦ AMBER^(ЯʘCK) 14:51, 24 April 2013 (UTC)