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Template:Did you know nominations/West African bichir

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by 97198 (talk) 10:23, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

West African bichir

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  • ... that the West African bichir, a freshwater fish, can both breathe air and can communicate with thumps and moans?

5x expanded by Cwmhiraeth (talk). Self-nominated at 20:58, 13 November 2017 (UTC).

  • Article is new enough, but length has only been increased by 2.9X (from 1659 to 4871) David notMD (talk) 22:45, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
@David notMD: I'm not quite sure how you are measuring the size. I have a tool "page size" to the left of my dashboard and clicking on that, the article currently has 1891 B, and at the last edit before I started expanding it, it had 178 B. Or there is "DYK check" which you can install following instructions above. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:15, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
@Cwmhiraeth: As I said, new to this. I have "Page information" in my toolbar and "View history" at the top. Both show size at 4873 bytes, and View history shows size before you started as 1659. My guess is this refers to total bytes, and what you describe (from 178 to 1891) refers to prose-only bytes. If you can confirm this and confirm that prose length is the criteria for measuring size increase for qualifying for DNY, I will reverse my objection, and then continue by looking at content.
Also, can you add a Wikilink to Bichir, and then within the West African bichir article, add a bit of text to the Description to differentiate it from the other bichirs. Can you clear the red out of ref #4? I think the webpage is now www.seriouslyfish.com. Consider adding text about this bichir as an aquarium species? For ref #8, I changed the citation so that it now goes to the correct page (page number 170 in the book but link needed to go to 165. David notMD (talk) 13:01, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
@David notMD: "Page information" does not give the same information as "page size". I can assure you that the expansion needed by DYK refers to the text size, now 2159 B as compared to the 178 B the article had before I started editing it. The description section is divided in two parts. The first part is about bichirs in general while the second parts describes this species. As for differentiating it from other species, that depends on what the source states. Often it will say that, for example, it has 58 vertebrae, and although not explicit, this is probably a distinguishing feature. I have done the other things you mentioned. Although they improved the article, they are not DYK requirements. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 14:05, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Good to go. I noticed that for other articles proposed for 5X size increase, reviewers often used the DYK review to ask for additional improvements, so I did the same. Still a very obscure article (40-50 visits per month), but improved. David notMD (talk) 20:58, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Hi, I came by to promote this, but do not see a full DYK review, so I will provide one. 5x expansion verified. New enough, long enough, well referenced, neutrally written, no close paraphrasing seen in online sources. QPQ done. Hook ref verified and cited inline. However, I wonder if you could jazz up the hook a little? Like:
  • ALT1: ... that West African bichir on the attack emit a series of thumps, while those fleeing respond with moans? Yoninah (talk) 22:03, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Thank you for the review. ALT1 is acceptable. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:01, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
  • @Cwmhiraeth: Thank you. I think it should be added that this is a fish:
  • ALT1a: ... that on the attack, the West African bichir freshwater fish emits a series of thumps, while those fleeing respond with moans?
  • ALT2 ... that thumps and moans coming from a West African swamp may indicate the presence of certain air-breathing fish? Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:28, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Calling on new reviewer to check new hooks. Yoninah (talk) 11:26, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
  • both ALT1a and ALT2. I agree that it should be clear that it's a fish although the name does not really need to be mentioned. AGF because of the air-breathing part being sourced to an offline source. Since only the hooks were to check, I will assume that the previous reviewers checked the rest. Regards SoWhy 14:52, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Note: struck ALT1 as not approved; restored the original review comment, which should never have been deleted, as at DYK we keep the entire review progression on the page. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:45, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
  • I don't care much for ALT1a, because adding the "freshwater fish" bit is very awkward and the grammar of the first half of the hook doesn't meld well with the last part, so could we go with ALT2 please. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:14, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

WOW! I thought this one was approved a while back! I am not in agreement with ALT2, as it implies that these sounds carry some distance through the air. These fish are less than 50 cm, and I am willing to bet the sounds are audible only under water. How about:

  • ALT1b ... that on the attack, the West African bichir (a freshwater fish) emits a series of thump sounds, while those fleeing respond with moans? David notMD (talk) 16:51, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
  • David notMD, parentheses are not allowed in hooks (except for the "pictured" indication), so ALT1b won't work (see WP:DYKSG#C9). You could use commas instead of parens. I'd also suggest that "thumps" is cleaner than "thump sounds". BlueMoonset (talk) 17:26, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
  • As I understand it, the sounds do carry some distance through air, which makes this fish very unusual. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 18:47, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Sad about the ban on ( ). My thinking on "sounds" was that after "on the attack," readers might get past "emits" and think that "a series of thumps" was physical contact. Also, we seem to be beating a dead horse (well, dead fish) here. Can we get to 'good enough' on the hook and move this one along? David notMD (talk) 20:24, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
  • @David notMD: you could set off the phrase with commas rather than parentheses. Yoninah (talk) 17:22, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
  • This seems to have stalled. To get it moving again, I'm going to suggest ALT2a, which I believe deals with the objections to ALT2, since I couldn't find anything in the article or the given source to indicate that the sounds do carry through the air:
  • ALT2a ... that underwater thumps and moans in a West African swamp may indicate the presence of certain air-breathing fish? —BlueMoonset (talk) 16:41, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
  • ALT2a is definitely hooky, and the inline citations check out. --Usernameunique (talk) 17:11, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
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