Template:Did you know nominations/Vrouwenhuis, Zwolle

The following is an archived discussion of Vrouwenhuis, Zwolle's DYK nomination. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page; such as this archived nomination"s (talk) page, the nominated article's (talk) page, or the Did you know (talk) page. Unless there is consensus to re-open the archived discussion here. No further edits should be made to this page. See the talk page guidelines for (more) information.

The result was: promoted by BlueMoonset (talk) 21:07, 28 March 2013 (UTC).

Vrouwenhuis, Zwolle

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... that a view of the Rock of Gibraltar (pictured) by Peter van de Velde has hung for centuries in the Dutch women's retirement home Vrouwenhuis?

Created by Jane023 (talk). Self nominated at 16:46, 10 March 2013 (UTC).

The article is new enough and long enough, but the article and hook might need some work. First of all, the article's name in the hook is not in bold. When you say "old age home", do you mean "retirement home"? As for the article itself, why is it "Vrouwenhuis, Zwolle" instead of simply "Vrouwenhuis"? Articles for buildings do not generally affix the location name in the article title. The article is also a bit lacking in the citation department---the factoid mentioned in the hook is not cited beyond the inclusion of the picture itself. Can you add some more reliable sources? Regards, Axem Titanium (talk) 14:29, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

thx for the feedback! "Vrouwenhuis" means "women's house" and the term was used for feminist meeting places in the 1960's as well as retirement homes. I expect some other (even older) women's retirement homes to be added eventually, but you're right, the ", Zwolle" is not yet necessary. I will move it. The factoid is cited in the photo record, which is in the Dutch library for art history, and the fact it's been around so long is because it the paintings were all in the original inventory of family member in charge who drew up the inventory in the 19th century (in the book at the bottom). Jane (talk) 15:00, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Ah I see. That sounds like a good bit of info to include in the lead for people not familiar with the language. I would be willing to AGF pass this nom if you incorporated the new source you added into in-line citations, so we can see which sentences are cited to which facts. Axem Titanium (talk) 17:12, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Adjusted the hook, and now I will brush up the article.Jane (talk) 12:34, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Assuming the target article is Vrouwenhuis, it actually doesn't currently seem quite long enough (1429 characters according to DYKCheck). Also several of the references need more details. Espresso Addict (talk) 21:26, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean by more ref details - they are all long-term reflinks based on archive numbers (i.e. will not succumb to linkrot).Jane (talk) 12:34, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

I think he means that none of the citations use any of our Wikipedia:Citation templates, which include extra details like date published, date accessed, author, title, etc. Axem Titanium (talk) 13:34, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

The referencing templates are unnecessary, but the references should, at minimum, state the publisher and the title of the page. The date accessed is also very useful. Espresso Addict (talk) 23:10, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

I now found my book, so will soon add the page nrs. Unfortunately I noticed while researching the other artists in the same gallery that I am not done with the article, and may even change the hook again. Thx for your patience. I will update here when I am ready for another review. Jane (talk) 10:15, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Take your time. We all like a good article. :) Axem Titanium (talk) 14:44, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

ALT1: that a view of the Rock of Gibraltar (pictured) has hung since the 18th century in a lady's art gallery in the Netherlands?

OK done and changed the alt. The main story is the art gallery in a frozen time capsule, but the most famous painter in the gallery is the guy who made the painting. Jane (talk) 22:44, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

With the expansion, the article is definitely long enough. However, there are currently two sections with no citations. Can you add a ref here or there to leave a paper trail for others who would want to verify your sources? Other than that, I think it's good to go. Axem Titanium (talk) 15:42, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

OK added all the other painter refs (I also created all their supporting articles, btw). The total # articles created in connection to this DYK: 8 (Peter van de Velde, Vrouwenhuis, Eva van Marle, Aleida Wolfsen, Aleida Greve, Cornelia van Marle, Anna Cornelia Holt, and Sophia Holt). The count gets even higher if you include Peter van de Velde's sponsor Guilliam Forchondt and Eva van Marle's contemporary and possible pupil Hendrick ten Oever with his teacher and relative Cornelis de Bie (1621–1664) who turns out to have been a Frans Hals pupil...Jane (talk) 07:55, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Looks good to go. Axem Titanium (talk) 13:53, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Regrettably, since the hook mentions the Rock of Gibraltar—indeed, it links to it and uses a picture of it—this is going to be caught up in the current Gibraltar restrictions, which require two reviews by separate people, an assurance that there is nothing promotional in nature about the article, and restricts the number of Gibraltar-related hooks promoted to the main page to one per day. (Not really an issue.) To avoid this, you can drop the image or replace it with another one, and create an alternate hook that avoids the phrase "Rock of Gibraltar". Or, we can call for another reviewer to review this. Which would you prefer? BlueMoonset (talk) 20:25, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Another reviewer Jane (talk) 00:17, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. That's what we'll do then. A second complete review is needed on this nomination. In addition to the normal criteria, because it is a Gilbraltar-related hook, the reviewer should also indicate whether they perceive any conflict of interest or promotional concerns about the article under review. (Please see Wikipedia talk:Did you know/GibraltarPediA Options for more details behind the restrictions.) I wish it wasn't necessary, but the community recently rejected an attempt to lift the restrictions. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:45, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

BlueMoonset asked me to do a formal second review. Length and date check out. The article is interesting. The referencing could still do with improvement (some statements are unreferenced and the references don't give full details), but it meets the DYK minimum. The image is relevant and has an appropriate license; I think it would be improved by cropping off the bottom (with the tops of the vases). I see no promotion of Gibraltar, nor evidence of COI relating to this museum. I have not been able to check for close paraphrasing as I don't speak Dutch but the article doesn't draw extensively on a single source. I do have a problem with the hook, as the fact about the Rock of Gibraltar painting having been there since the 18th century is not explicitly mentioned in the article. The link in the image information page [1] states that it currently hangs there, but doesn't seem to address its history. Also, the current version of the hook doesn't really express what's fascinating about the article -- the fact that the collection of high-quality paintings was housed in a ladies' retirement home. Espresso Addict (talk) 02:46, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! These are good points. I will try to address those. Like you, I got fascinated by the "lady's art gallery bit" after I started writing, so that's why the article started off with the other stuff first. Jane (talk) 08:45, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

OK done!

Thanks, but you still need to reference it! Espresso Addict (talk) 09:31, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Which refs do you mean? I put these three in there: 1) Van de Velde is the most famous (made an article about him; he's the only artist on artnet in the collection catalog) and 2) it is attributed to him by the RKD (id number is in the painting file if you click on it), and 3) Vrouwenhuis=time capsule unchanged since will of Aleida is on page 62 of ISBN 9065505725

I think we're nearly there... You just need to cite the catalogue directly in the article (not just in the Commons description for the image) and I think everything will be covered. Espresso Addict (talk) 12:00, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Done Jane (talk) 15:49, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

2nd review completed. Offline & Dutch language sources AGF'd. Espresso Addict (talk) 06:17, 22 March 2013 (UTC)