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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 07:30, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Vikram Sood

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Vikram Sood
Vikram Sood
  • ... that spymaster Vikram Sood (pictured) was an officer of the Indian Postal Service before he joined the intelligence organisation RAW and later served as its head from 2000 to 2003? Source: "Vikram Sood came to R&AW from the Indian Postal Service and was permanently absorbed in the Research Analysis Service (R&AS), a new All India Service in R&AW created by Indira Gandhi on Kao's advice" (Rediff news).The Unending Game: Ex-spymaster Vikram Sood’s book Firstpost

5x expanded by DiplomatTesterMan (talk) and DBigXray (talk). Nominated by DBigXray (talk) at 20:05, 6 January 2019 (UTC).

Alternate framing of hook 1:-
ALT3 ... that Vikram Sood (pictured) who went on to head the intelligence organisation RAW from 2000 to 2003, was an ex-officer of the Indian Postal Service? Source: "Vikram Sood came to R&AW from the Indian Postal Service and was permanently absorbed in the Research Analysis Service (R&AS), a new All India Service in R&AW created by Indira Gandhi on Kao's advice" (Rediff news) ∯WBGconverse 12:47, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
  • Added Spymaster in ALT0. Between ALT0 and ALT3 I like ALT0 more because ALT3 gave me an impression that Sood directly became the chief of RAW after leaving postal service, which is not factually correct. He first joined RAW as an officer. DBigXrayᗙ 12:53, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

I considered this nomination for review, but I am concerned the undue weight placed on the content of the book, rather than the biography of Vikram Sood. The five-time expansion of the article to qualify for DYK, is solely based on the book, rather than the person. Flibirigit (talk) 19:10, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

I am curious if consideration was given to write an article about the book. At first glance, it appears to pass WP:GNG for an article. Flibirigit (talk) 19:25, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
As per Flibirigit's request on my talkpage to comment ... I would like to stay away from the DYK for now. By all means the DYK can proceed, it is a good nomination and the normal process can carry on without me. Personally I am only staying away for simple reasons such as fatigue, which I have nearly got rid of but still not enough to comment directly on this. Thank you for pointing out an article on the book is possible by itself, it's a really good point. Let's see how DBigXray wants to take this forward. Winged Blades of Godric had also commented. Regards. DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 19:42, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
Second opinion: As long as the main biographical section is reliably sourced and at least 1500 characters long, it would qualify as a start-class article. IMO the whole Publications section should be moved right now to a different article about the book. And as long as that article is reliably sourced and at least 1500 characters long, you could develop a double hook for DYK. Yoninah (talk) 19:47, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
Flibirigit Sorry for the late reply, I was busy elsewhere. In response to the concerns on article length for DYK eligibility criteria.
  • The article version before the expansion had 730 characters (of readable prose) in Bio section. and 106 in Publications. (using this tool)
  • The article as it stands right now has 4949 characters over all. (almost 7x expansion overall) (1744 characters (2.5x expansion) in Bio plus 3203 characters in Publications)
  • So the assertion that The five-time expansion of the article to qualify for DYK, is solely based on the book, rather than the person is not accurate.
  • If you believe that the publication section is unduly large then I am willing to trim some of it, so that the DYK can proceed, although I would prefer not to.
  • Regarding the suggestion of forking out a separate article for the book, possibly when we have more critical reviews from reliable publishers in media, then we can start a fresh book article. currently the coverage has very less critical component and mostly deals with book excerpts as is expected for a newly released book on a topic of espionage that catches public attention.
  • I also seriously gave thoughts to writing double hook but could not think of a good one that can include both. The current hook looks good and interesting to me,
  • As User:Yoninah also suggested the article as it stands is eligible for DYK. So it would be greatly appreciated if you can change your mind and agree to pass this current DYK.DBigXrayᗙ 21:53, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

I have looked at this again, but my opinion has not changed. The major expansion of the article to qualify for DYK is overwhelming from the book summary. The actual biography of Mr. Sood was barely doubled, which is not close to a 5X expansion. The undue weight of the book in this article will not pass for neutrality. I recommend to find a lot more information about the person, or create an article about the book instead. Flibirigit (talk) 22:34, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

Hi, I keep seeing myself being pinged here, but haven't had time yet to reply. I'm moving the book right now to its own article; it doesn't make sense to leave it the way it is. Then we can talk about whether the biography is long enough. Yoninah (talk) 23:21, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
OK, I have created the new page The Unending Game: A Former R&AW Chief's Insights into Espionage, which is what should have been done in the first place. The content was all created within the 7-day window of the nomination, so should qualify for a new article under DYK. An infobox needs to be created, and a little more technical detail should be added about the publisher, language, distribution, etc. Meanwhile, Vikram Sood is no longer eligible as a 5x expansion, unless you add a lot more detail to it. @Flibirigit: are you willing to consider The Unending Game: A Former R&AW Chief's Insights into Espionage as a new nomination after it is tidied up and a new hook is proposed for it? Yoninah (talk) 23:40, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
Yes, I will be happy to consider the book's article for DYK. We can use this same page already in progress. I will check back later to see how that article is progressing. Flibirigit (talk) 23:44, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
DBigXray, would you mind submitting news hooks here using the book? I will do a proper review once new hooks are listed here. Flibirigit (talk) 23:52, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
I will submit separate DYK for the book after further improvements there. Will continue this DYK for the BIO as was originally intended.DBigXrayᗙ 21:23, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
  • ALT4:... that spymaster Vikram Sood (pictured) was an officer of the Indian Postal Service before he joined the intelligence organisation RAW and later served as its head ? Source: "Vikram Sood came to R&AW from the Indian Postal Service and was permanently absorbed in the Research Analysis Service (R&AS), a new All India Service in R&AW created by Indira Gandhi on Kao's advice" (Rediff news).The Unending Game: Ex-spymaster Vikram Sood’s book Firstpost

Full review requested by a new reviewer for ALT4. Based on the feedback by previous reviewer several changes have been made in the article. The book summary section has been greatly reduced and other sections have been added to provide more weight to the biography section. The current version of the article after new updates is still 6.5x expansion of the article version before the DYK nomination. DBigXrayᗙ 20:59, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

I will complete the review as I promised to do above. Flibirigit (talk) 21:29, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
review for The Unending Game
General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems

Hook eligibility:

  • Cited: No - ?
  • Interesting: No - ?

Image eligibility:

QPQ: None required.

Overall: Accepting article on the book as new enough, based on the previous nomination of Vikram Sood, and request to split the contents. Length and sourcing are adequate. Tone is neutral. No plagiarism issues detected. QPQ is not required since nominator has less than five DYK credits. The hook offers no insight into the book. Another suggestion somehow incorporating the book is needed. A photograph of the book release may be used, by the photograph nominated here does not appear in the article. It needs to be added, or a different nominated. When multiple citations are used, they should appear in numerical order, that is [1][2][3] etc. Use of acronyms needs to be consistent, either RAW of R&AW, not both. Also, when acronyms appear, the first usage should be in the form of "Central Intelligence Agency (CIA)". Flibirigit (talk) 21:59, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Question: Clarification needed if the nomination is solely for the Vikram Sood article, or also for the book. I will assume that both are wanted, and will now review the biography. Flibirigit (talk) 22:02, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Answer:Please consider this nomination solely for Vikram Sood article. DBigXrayᗙ 22:04, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
review for Vikram Sood
General: Article is new enough and long enough

Policy compliance:

Hook eligibility:

  • Cited: No - ?
  • Interesting: No - ?
Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
QPQ: None required.

Overall: Biography is new enough, and nominated on time. Length is adequate. Tone is neutral. No plagiarism issues detected. QPQ is not required since nominator has less than five DYK credits. Use of acronyms needs to be consistent, either RAW of R&AW, and IPoS or IPs, not both. The first paragraph in the career section is not cited. In the career section, the word "Currently" should be altered to avoid a dated sentence. "As of date, he is" or similar is preferred. The word "spymaster" in the hook does not appear in the article. Similar language needs to be used, otherwise it is cited. Flibirigit (talk) 22:20, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

What's going on here? Why not a double hook that's going to appeal to a worldwide audience? Here is a suggestion:
Refs added for career section. RAW replaced with R&AW. IPoS is different from IPS, added wikilink for Indian Police Service (IPS). removed currently and added "As of 2019". added spymaster in the lead. DBigXrayᗙ 22:36, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
@DBigXray and Yoninah: ALT5 is a very catchy hook and is cited accordingly. I agree it would appeal to a wider audience. I would easily approve it with some minor edits to the book's article as mentioned in its review. Flibirigit (talk) 22:43, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
The use of acronyms in the book's article still need to be cleaned up. All other issues resolved. Flibirigit (talk) 23:18, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
I have struck ALT4 in preference of ALT5. Double credits for two articles added. Flibirigit (talk) 23:22, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
approving ALT5, with all issues now resolved on both articles. Flibirigit (talk) 00:24, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
Flibirigit, May I ask you despite being the nominator of this DYK who has spent so much efforts in improving this article why my requests and comments are being sidelined and ignored ? ALT2 and its derivative ALT5 are both indeed interesting DYKs, but they are focussing on the Book and hence it is more suitable as a DYK for the book article. ALT4 that I nominated on this BIO article is based on the biography of the person. Someone working as a Post officer rose on to become the highest spy of the country. This is indeed an interesting DYK. Whatever issues you reported with the Article Vikram Sood has been cleared and if there are any more concenrs related to DYK4 then please let me know and we can decide on it. The DYK on the book with other suitable ALTs will be submitted later, when I am done with the book article.DBigXrayᗙ 12:40, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
I considered comments from all users involved in the review. I feel that ALT5 is the best hook overall for both articles. It is very catchy, and will appeal to a much broader audience than the others. ALT4 will not appeal to a broad audience, especially readers unfamiliar with topics from India. The wording in ALT5 is relatable to many poeple, and having two featured articles in the same hook will generate much more traffic to the articles, and it more likely to have this nomination in the photo slot at the top, rather than hidden down below. This also means both nominations are approved at the same time, and two credits are given at the same time. Flibirigit (talk) 15:44, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
As I already said that I am not opposed to ALT4 and in fact I support it to proceed as a DYK for the book article since it covers the book. The picture can also be used for the book article in the photo slot. The point of disagreement here is using the book DYK for bio article. and Sidelining ALT4 which is based on BIO article. I think there is a clear difference of opinion between us because I believe that a DYK that says "A post officer went on to become a spymaster" is something that has an international appeal and is actually very inspiring to everyone. Thats why I had requested a new reviewer but you insisted on reviewing the same again. Now kindly guide how can we proceed ahead with this. As I said, the BIO Article is ready from my side so ALT4 should proceed with this BIO. I will further improve the book article and then nominate it with the "very catchy" ALT5. And hopefully everyone can be happy about it. regards. DBigXrayᗙ 16:22, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
  • @DBigXray: you are certainly entitled to nominate each article individually and have two different hooks. However, your extremely nationcentric view and the rather unhooky wording of ALT4 is not going to attract as many hits on the main page as ALT5, which includes elements that are familiar to a worldwide audience (note that the James Bond article averages close to 4,000 hits per day). If your goal is to get lots of people to read your articles, please reread the points Flibirigit has made in his last post and opt for a hook that will either be placed in the highly visible first (image) or the last (quirky) slot. If you are not interested in attracting many clicks, then go ahead with ALT4. (You can also expect complaints at WP:ERRORS as to how ALT4 meets the criteria for "interesting to a broad audience".) Yoninah (talk) 17:35, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
  • The merits of ALT5 is not the point of disagreement. ALT5 will still proceed as a separate DYK. The disagreement is over discarding the Biography based ALT4 and using ALT5 as a double hook. You feel that ALT4 may not get as many hits, but I am bullish [i.e. optimistic]Updated over this inspirational hook and I have high hopes that it will easily cross the 5k hit count to reach DYK stats page. So yes I would like to proceed with the ALT4 for this bio article. DBigXrayᗙ 18:15, 12 February 2019 (UTC) updated on 07:26, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
  • So write it better. Don't write it in a linear way, that Sood did this and then did that and then did that. Write it hooky! Yoninah (talk) 18:22, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Ok, here are other variations of ALT4. DBigXrayᗙ 18:42, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
  • ALT6:... that spymaster Vikram Sood (pictured) started his career in the India Post and went on to become the head of the intelligence organisation RAW?
  • ALT7:... that spymaster Vikram Sood (pictured) who became the head the intelligence organisation RAW, was an ex-officer of the India Post?
  • Thank you. There's no image with the ALT8 hook; it will probably make the quirky (last) slot. Back to you, @Flibirigit:. Yoninah (talk) 19:05, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Yoninah Any reason for not taking the pic ? ALT 9 can take pic as well. DBigXrayᗙ 19:09, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
  • ALT9: ... that in India, a postal officer (pictured) became a spymaster?
  • Because it's a quirky hook. It leaves a lot to the imagination and spurs interest. Showing who the guy is deflates it. Yoninah (talk) 19:16, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

Please let me know when Template:Did you know nominations/The Unending Game is submitted, and we can get both done at the same time. It seems to be the only compromise here. Flibirigit (talk) 20:40, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

@DBigXray and Yoninah: are we agreeable to ALT5 and ALT9 on separate nominations? Flibirigit (talk) 21:07, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
I think it's unadvisable to have an image with ALT9. Besides, the image is showing him at a book launch. I'm okay with ALT5 and ALT9. @Flibirigit: you do not have to open a new nomination page. Just clearly list each hook at the bottom of this thread and the promoter will close the nomination after promoting the second hook. Also please make a note that these nominations should be well spaced apart, at least two weeks apart if not more, as they deal with the same subject. Yoninah (talk) 21:20, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
Yoninah I agree with the above comments about no photo on ALT9 and spacing out the hooks by a couple weeks. DBigXray, are there any other objections before going ahead? Flibirigit (talk) 21:24, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
@DBigXray and Yoninah:, fixing the pings. Flibirigit (talk)
no objections. I will try to find another image tomorrow. DBigXrayᗙ 21:30, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Why? Striking ALT9 and other hooks and keeping ALT8 for approval.
  • @DBigXray: please give this a rest already. Your hooks will run far apart with no image for either one. Your "bullish" attitude is getting you nowhere. It's too bad that you didn't agree to the double hook in the image slot; you really would have reached your 5k goal that way.Yoninah (talk) 21:46, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
@DBigXray: I agree with Yoninah. ALT8 can proceed with no photo, as the hook is suitable for the quirky slot without a photo. ALT5 can also proceed with no photo for a hook on the book, as photo on the book launch is not suitable for protraying the book. The offer is still there for the double hook with a photo that is very likely to get a lot of hits from the top slot, or two single hooks with no photos. Both Yoninah and I recommend the double hook. Flibirigit (talk) 22:03, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
Vikram Sood
Here is another picture of Sood that I am proposing for ALT9 or ALT7 or ALT6. By "bullish" I only meant optimistic. IMHO, a picture of the author with the book at its book launch event is just the perfect picture for a DYK (ALT5) about a book. DBigXrayᗙ 07:10, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
It seems like the intent is to get Vikram Sood featured on the main page on Wikipedia twice, with a photo each time. That would go against the fundamental spirit of DYK. Flibirigit (talk) 15:21, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
Facepalm Facepalm No. Flibirigit. Just like any other BIO DYK with a pic this is a BIO DYK with a pic. Since you had claimed that there are issues with using the Book launch pic for BIO DYK, hence I propsed this another pic. Lets just WP:AGF, shall we? DBigXrayᗙ 15:25, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
And I had only nominated 1 BIO article with a DYK. Also note that WP:CFORKING a separate book article was neither my idea, nor did I forked the article. So please do not make such allegations. DBigXrayᗙ 15:49, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
  • It also seems like we are spinning our wheels here. ALT6 and ALT7 have been struck, but the nominator is still insisting on running them. This thread is confusing and overlong and I recommend shutting it down right now. @Flibirigit: please list the two hooks you are approving at the bottom of this thread, add instructions for separate promotion, and let's end this already. Yoninah (talk) 15:29, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
  • I noted that I prefer all three DYKs 6, 7 or 9. and I gave my reasons for it. I am fine if any of it is chosen. I understand your proposal for not using the image but I am not convinced by that reasoning. rest is upto the reviewer. Regarding the BOOK DYK I am not sure what the procedure is, I think the clean way would be to keep it separate DYK instead of mixing it here.  DBigXrayᗙ 15:48, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

ALT8 is approved. ALT5 is now being used on a separate nomination. All other hooks are declined, and have been struck. Flibirigit (talk) 16:19, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

  • I'm concerned that the phrasing in this article is too close to that of its sources. Compare for example "It has a bold critique of major intelligence failures, including the ones that made 9/11 attacks in the USA possible" with "a bold critique of spectacular intelligence failures, including those which made possible the 9/11 attacks". Nikkimaria (talk) 13:25, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Nikkimaria, I have went through the sources once again to fix these concerns. Please see if the tag can now be removed. regards. DBigXrayᗙ 04:09, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Thank you for fixing that specific example; however, issues remain. Another example is "Pakistan would first need to shut down the machinery of terrorism and give evidence to India that a change of heart has happened" vs "They need to give evidence that a change of heart has happened and they have shut the terror machinery" - the order is flipped but otherwise the wording is almost identical. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:33, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Nikkimaria this is the subject's viewpoint and after your feedback, I have now changed it to a direct statement with quotes so as not to digress from his actual words and keep the meaning intact. I hope there is nothing more that escaped my notice. DBigXrayᗙ 06:27, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Afraid so - another example is the end of the lead, which is closely paraphrased from the book's description on the Penguin India site. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:34, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Green tickY fixed Nikkimaria, thanks for the kind feedbacks. Please let me know if the tag can now be removed and the DYK can proceed. DBigXrayᗙ 05:52, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
  • I see that you have again edited the specific example mentioned. Have you reviewed the rest of the article compared to its sources, cited or not, to look for other issues? Nikkimaria (talk) 11:49, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
  • It might make sense for you to seek assistance with this from a relevant WikiProject, or potentially the Guild? Issues persist. Another example is "The book gives a national and international perspective on methods of accumulating intelligence from outside the country, the relevance of intelligence to secure and propagate the national interests, and the reason why intelligence is the primary playing fields in the game of nations." vs "provides a national and international perspective on gathering external intelligence, its relevance in securing and advancing national interests, and why intelligence is the first playground in the game of nations." I'd also suggest reviewing WP:CLOP and applying it not only to this article but other creations/additions you've made as well. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:42, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Nikkimaria this was already fixed in the lead, but missed in the body. It has been updated as was done in the lead. The CLOP issues should have all been addressed now. Kindly review. DBigXrayᗙ 05:16, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria:, the concerns you have raised for Vikram Sood may also apply to The Unending Game. I suggest looking at both for the sake of being thorough and efficient. Flibirigit (talk) 16:59, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

  • Green tickY done, Nikkimaria, Flibirigit The CLOP issues were largely introduced by User:DiplomatTesterMan who is currently on a wiki hiatus. I have gone ahead and done a copy edit of the entire article to fix the concerns that you have pointed. Kindly review again and let me know if the DYK can now proceed. DBigXrayᗙ 16:13, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Certainly better than it was, but there are still points that warrant rephrasing or quoting - for example, the bit about the "clandestine nuclear weapons programme" is nearly identical to the source. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:16, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Green tickY done, I have quoted it since paraphrasing did not do justice to the meaning. Nikkimaria, this is the only instance that merited a quoting. Over to you.DBigXrayᗙ 06:07, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
  • I don't agree. Another example is "events that led to the Kargil war in 1999 with Pakistan and Sood's tenure as secretary, R&AW from 2000 till 2003 when he retired" vs "events leading up to the Kargil war with Pakistan in 1999 and through to his stint as secretary, R&AW from 2000-2003 after which he retired". Nikkimaria (talk) 23:34, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Nikkimaria, just now I edited the article a little, rephrased a few sentences and did some copyediting. More needed? I also checked the copyvios with the copyvio tool. Seems to be ok in that aspect, right? DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 11:47, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
  • The copyvio tool will catch exact copying, but not inexact but still problematic close paraphrasing - it shouldn't be relied on in that regard. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:42, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
  • Nikkimaria, thank you for pointing this out. I think the only thing I can do to sort this out 100% is to go through each line one by one and compare with the original sources. This will take a couple of days. Regards. DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 16:43, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
  • Thank you for following up on this. Please make sure the overall framework is not the same as well. Flibirigit (talk) 16:57, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
  • Nikkimaria, I have made many changes to the article Vikram Sood. Before I shift to checking for close paraphrasing in the book article for the other DYK (Template:Did you know nominations/The Unending Game), I would request you to see a section on the talk page (linked here) where I want to clarify whether certain paragraphs in the page have too many direct quotes and should be paraphrased more, or whether it is ok?
  • Flibirigit, yes, I had noticed the overlap in certain matter between the two articles, and matter related to the book has been minimised in the bio article. The structure issue is also duly noted and I think this has been addressed in the bio. Clarification in this regard if it has not been addressed would be helpful. (I want to complete the bio before shifting to the book). Thanks. DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 18:30, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
  • @Flibirigit: Just now the close paraphrasing template was removed by Nikkimaria. So since that aspect is addressed, do you have any more issues with this article? Have the doubts you mentioned above ("overall framework") been addressed too and can the DYK for this bio proceed? (Not the book, I will shift to that after this one is wrapped up 100%) Thanks. DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 23:41, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
The recent changes seem adequate to me. Nikkimaria, do you have any other concerns before we continue? Flibirigit (talk) 18:13, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
No. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:46, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

restoring approval for ALT8. Flibirigit (talk) 23:07, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

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