Template:Did you know nominations/Vardges Sureniants

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Miyagawa (talk) 22:20, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Vardges Sureniants

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~~... that the painting After the Massacre (pictured) by Vardges Sureniants was his way of responding to the massacres of Armenians?~~

Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Anthony Lee

Created by Proudbolsahye (talk). Self nominated at 06:15, 5 December 2013 (UTC).

This article on an interesting artist is long enough, has a nice collection of images, has inline citations (several to non-English sources), image is free. However I can't verify the hook, and it might be difficult to find an RS which would verify a statement such as 'was his way of responding to (something)'. Sureniants was a noted illustrator, and one of the cited sources in English supports that. Perhaps you could come up with an alternate hook mentioning his illustration of the works of a particular artist or artists? NinaGreen (talk) 00:34, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

@NinaGreen: Thanks for the review NinaGreen. I would like an interesting hook that'll grab attention. I believe that merely mentioning his illustration of works won't grab much attention. I can help you verify the sources. Here are what they translate to:

Armenian: 1890-ական թթ. Սուրենյանցը ստեղծում է հայոց ջարդերին նվիրված կտավների մի ամբողջ շարք. «Լքյալը», «Ոտնահարված սրբությունը», «Ջարդից հետո»-ն..." English: 1890s. Of creates a whole series of paintings devoted to the massacre. "Lkyale", "Trampled holiness," "The Massacre" is ... "

Russian: "Художник, прекрасно осознающий свое место в пространстве армянской культуры, не мог не обратиться к теме Геноцида армян – погромов и резни армян в Турции 1894-1895 годов. Эмоциональный тонус полотен «Попранная святыня», «После резни» буквально наэлектризован хаотической стихией трагизма." English: "The Artist, perfectly conscious of its place in the space of Armenian culture, could not address the topic of the Armenian Genocide - pogroms and massacres of Armenians in Turkey of 1894-1895. Emotional tone paintings" trample upon the shrine, "" After the massacre "literally electrified the chaotic elements of tragedy."

NOTE: I have used Google translate just for your own verifiability. I am willing to change the wording of the hook...perhaps the following will be better?

ALT1 ~~... that the painting After the Massacre (pictured) by Vardges Sureniants was one of his many paintings dedicated to the massacres of Armenians?~~

OK. Thanks for the translations. How about this?

ALT2 ... that After the Massacre (pictured) was one of a series of paintings by Vardges Sureniants in response to the massacres of Armenians?

It's not too different from your original hook, and incorporates the wording 'series of paintings' from the translated source. I don't mind which of the three you choose. Let me know. NinaGreen (talk) 19:44, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Okay, fine with ALT2. Proudbolsahye (talk) 19:45, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Good to go with ALT2. NinaGreen (talk) 19:47, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

You know, chances are that the picture is not going to be used since its dimension are very small. Consequently, the hook will become very uninteresting. I have changed the hook and picture...please see.

ALT3 ... that it has been said that the painter Vardges Sureniants (pictured) "will last as long as the Armenian people shall last"?

Google translations for the source of the hook are as follows:

Armenian: Բարձր կուլտուրայով կատարված նրա լավագոյն գործերում ուժեղ տրոփում է Հայաստանի սիրտը, դրա համար Վարդգես Սուրենյանցը կապրի այնքան, որքան կապրի Հայ ժողովուրդը... (pg. 15)

English: Best done with a culture that was strong in Armenia heart throb, Vardges Surenyants living for as long as Armenian people live...

I know the translation is horrible but this is for your verification. Hope it helps. Proudbolsahye (talk) 07:55, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Could an experienced DYK editor help out here? The cited source is in Armenian, and the translation in the article appears to be the nominator's own translation (which apparently doesn't fall within the prohibition against original research WP:NOR; see [1]). I checked the DYK rules page, but was unable to find any policy on the use of a nominator's own translation as a hook when the cited source is in another language. NinaGreen (talk) 16:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

WP:NOENG states: "Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations by Wikipedians, but translations by Wikipedians are preferred over machine translations. When using a machine translation of source material, editors should be reasonably certain that the translation is accurate and the source is appropriate." and we have our own ticker for AGF approval of the hook which is mainly used for instances like this (

). If you're still uncomfortable with the translation I have made, I can get a non-involved editor who knows Armenian to verify it for you. Proudbolsahye (talk) 18:09, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

There are special rules for DYK hooks which apply over and above the rules for articles themselves. I'd like an experienced DYK editor to let us know whether hooks translated by the nominator qualify for DYK. NinaGreen (talk) 20:13, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Another minor point. The cited source for the proposed new hook is 148 pages in length. Could you add the page reference to the citation for the hook? NinaGreen (talk) 18:00, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I added the page. Now we need to find an expert on DYK hooks. Proudbolsahye (talk) 18:54, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

The way you've done that has created another problem because you added a reference to p.15, but you have 13 different citations for the Atamyan publication, and the way you've added the page reference for the hook makes it appear that all 13 citations relate to material on p.15 of the Atamyan article, which I suspect is not the case. You need to set the citation up as a harv reference so that you can cite different page references for different facts in the article. NinaGreen (talk) 21:16, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

@NinaGreen: Okay, fixed. Proudbolsahye (talk) 21:30, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

That's created yet another problem, because you now have the reference for the hook in a separate section entitled 'Bibliography' rather than together with the other references in the 'References' section. You need to create a section headed 'Footnotes' or 'Notes' with {{Reflist}} beneath it so that all your references will be together in one section, not separated. If you want it to appear as a double column, use {{Reflist|colwidth=30em}}. NinaGreen (talk) 21:43, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Well they're not technically in seperate sections this ref #23, for example, is directly linked with the bibliography section. That's how harv refs work. I changed the name of the section header nonetheless. If you think there's a better format, I kindly ask you to do it yourself so as to prevent misunderstanding and not keep going back and forth at the nom page. Proudbolsahye (talk) 21:58, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Take a look at the article of mine you reviewed earlier to see how harv references work, or ask at the Help Desk. You now have three different sections, 'References', 'Notes' and 'Bibliography', where you should only have 'Notes' and 'References' (take a look at any number of Wikipedia articles for that format). This problem wouldn't have arisen if you hadn't decided, after I'd approved the DYK nomination, to change the hook to one which was referenced to a citation you'd used 13 times in the article but hadn't cited any individual page references for. That had to be fixed to made the new hook acceptable, and in attempting to fix it you've created additional problems, but the Help Desk can assist you with that. NinaGreen (talk) 22:10, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Okay, fixed. Proudbolsahye (talk) 22:21, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

You left a message on my Talk page earlier today asking me to look at the nomination again, but as I understand it, you're currently waiting for BlueMoonset, whom you'd asked (in your Ernest Yarrow nomination above) to consider the issue of whether DYK rules permit the nominator's own translation to be used as part of the hook. However while you're waiting for BlueMoonset, perhaps you could get someone to assist with smoothing out the translation ['With a high understanding of culture, his best works contained the beating heart of the Armenian nation. Therefore, Sureniants will last as long as the Armenian people shall last']. The current wording is a bit awkward, and irrespective of whether your translation can be used in the hook, it would improve the article to smooth it out. NinaGreen (talk) 17:55, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Okay I smoothed out the translation. Also, I contacted BlueMoonset on his TP. Proudbolsahye (talk) 07:25, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

BM pinged me, so I'm replying here. I do quite a bit of my own translating, as is patently obvious from a glance at the FAs I've written, and as such I may be able to help. In article, translations by Wikipedians are explicitly allowed (as cited above). To ensure verifiability and allow readers to check the translation, we should include the original as well in the article. Check out the article Amir Hamzah for an example.

Now, as for translations in DYK hooks. We have historically allowed this, and a quick browse through my DYKs shows several in which translations were used in the hooks (without the original language, owing to space constraints). In all cases the original language was included in the article. This includes Dardanella (theatre company), Fakih Usman, Melati van Agam (1931 film), and Sejarah Film 1900–1950. Thus, if there is no reason to doubt the translation, and if the original language is included, I see no reason for not allowing the latest ALT. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:05, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification, Crisco. Could you add your comments to the DYK rules? I think it would be helpful to have the rules for the inclusion in hooks of translations by nominators spelled out there. NinaGreen (talk) 16:40, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Adding to the DYK rules would require bringing up a proposal at WT:DYK, something I cannot do with the limited internet time I have this December. If nothing explicit is in the rules, that means it is editorial judgment (i.e. that of the reviewer) whether a translation is acceptable or not. I was just indicating that previous reviews have found translation acceptable. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:56, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I posed the question there just now. NinaGreen (talk) 22:36, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

The comments from Crisco indicate that this nomination can move ahead once the Armenian text is included in the article. NinaGreen (talk) 00:43, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

@NinaGreen: Okay, done. Proudbolsahye (talk) 20:12, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't show up, though. Needs a fix. I'd have done it myself to save time but I've not used that sort of format before, and don't know how. NinaGreen (talk) 21:07, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

@NinaGreen: It formatted it as a note. Proudbolsahye (talk) 21:27, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

But by doing that you now have a 'Notes' section as well as a 'Footnotes' section. More importantly, this is what shows up in the text of the article: 'once said of Sureniants that: {{quote|With a broad understanding of culture'. Obviously '{{quote|' shouldn't show up in the text of the article. Ask the Help Desk to help you fix it. You want to get rid of the 'Notes' section, and have the Armenian text show up in your Footnotes section, and you don't want '{{quote|' showing up in the text of the article. NinaGreen (talk) 22:44, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

@NinaGreen: Done. Proudbolsahye (talk) 06:27, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Good to go with ALT3 above. NinaGreen (talk) 18:53, 15 December 2013 (UTC)