Template:Did you know nominations/Transport of Białystok children

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:22, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

Transport of Białystok children

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Białystok children drawn by a contemporary witness

• ... that children from the Białystok Ghetto (pictured) panicked when told to undress and wash, because they knew about gas chambers? Source: "Soon after their arrival, the children, who had already experienced all the Jewish suffering in the East in their home, Bialystok [Białystok], were taken in groups to the disinfection bath, where frightening scenes occurred. The children knew about the gas chambers and did not want to enter the bath chambers; they screamed desperately, “No, no! Gas!”" Adler, H. G. (2017). Theresienstadt 1941–1945: The Face of a Coerced Community. Translated by Cooper, Belinda. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 9780521881463. p. 126
  • ALT1:... that children from the Białystok Ghetto (pictured) panicked when told to undress and wash, but were not gassed for another six weeks?
  • ALT2:... that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem probably intervened to prevent the rescue of 1,200 Jewish children (pictured) who were murdered at Auschwitz? Source: "Although no single factor can explain the collapse of the planned exchange of Jewish children for German prisoners, the intervention of [the mufti] was no doubt a significant contributory factor." Bender, Sara (2008). The Jews of Bialystok During World War II and the Holocaust. Lebanon: University Press of New England. ISBN 9781584657293. p. 272
  • ALT3:... that Ottla Kafka was murdered at Auschwitz because she volunteered to help children from the Białystok Ghetto (pictured)?[1]

• Reviewed: Phonetics
• Comment: There is probably a better way to rewrite the original/ALT1 to be more shocking and surprising... I'd like the article to be featured on 7 October if possible; that was the date that the children were murdered.

Created by Catrìona (talk). Self-nominated at 01:22, 22 September 2018 (UTC).

• @Catrìona: I'll review shortly. epicgenius (talk) 16:22, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: epicgenius (talk) 16:34, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

• Moved from above:
  • ALT3 isn't mentioned directly in the article but it is mentioned in the reference. The sentence in the article The train arrived at Auschwitz two days later; everyone was gassed immediately. includes Kafka, so maybe this should be explicitly mentioned.
• How about for ALT1, instead of that, use
  • ALT4:... that children from the Białystok Ghetto (pictured) knew about gassing and panicked when told to undress and wash, even though they were not gassed for another six weeks?
• But personally I'd prefer ALT0 or ALT3 instead, in that order, it's probably more hooky. ALT2 is pretty speculatory so I wouldn't prioritize that. on ALT0 and ALT2. on the others. Let me know which one you'd prefer, though I strongly recommend ALT0 and ALT3. epicgenius (talk) 16:34, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

• @Epicgenius: Thanks for the quick review. I personally prefer ALT0 to ALT3 and would rather not mention Kafka twice in the article. It would seem to violate the policy of due weight, since she is mentioned by name in only one of the sources. Catrìona (talk) 21:58, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

• @Catrìona: Fair enough. As I said above, I'll accept ALT0 and ALT2 in good faith, ALT1 and ALT3 are also good to go. For the person who closes this nomination, I strongly suggest the use of ALT0. epicgenius (talk) 02:37, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

• Shouldn't it be "bathe" instead of "wash"? Yoninah (talk) 21:12, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

• @Yoninah: Although it's not entirely clear to the ambiguous wording of sources, it is more likely that they were told to wash in showers rather than bathtubs. Catrìona (talk) 05:47, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

• @Catriona: I assumed that. But the way it's worded, it sounds like they were asked to wash dishes, not bodies. "Bathe" is the acceptable word for cleansing the body. Yoninah (talk) 12:18, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

• Repinging @Catrìona: with an accent :) Yoninah (talk) 12:20, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

@Yoninah: We may be dealing with different varieties of English here. For me (north-west American), "wash" as an intransitive verb means to clean one's body and "bathe" would only be used for full immersion in water. I'm trying to think if there might be another verb that could be used here. Catrìona (talk) 16:02, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

• I'm originally from California. Your source is saying "bath chambers", but if you don't want to use "bathe", you could say something like:
• ALT0a: ... that children from the Białystok Ghetto (pictured) panicked when told to undress and enter the disinfection room, because they knew about the gas chambers?
• ALT0b: ... that children from the Białystok Ghetto (pictured) panicked when told to undress and prepare for disinfection, because they knew about the gas chambers? Yoninah (talk) 18:26, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

• Thanks for your help, Yoninah. The source quoted for ALT0 is actually a translation from German, so I would take it with a grain of salt as to exact semantics. The Polish language source cited in the article mentions "showers" (Polish: prysznic) on page 196, so I'd like to propose an ALT0c: ... that children from the Białystok Ghetto (pictured) panicked when told to undress and shower, because they knew about gas chambers? Catrìona (talk) 23:55, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

• Definitely. I was wondering why you didn't say "shower" in the first place. Now, one more question: On the face of it, the hook sounds like this took place in the ghetto. Do you want to add something about arriving in Theresienstadt, like:
• ALT0d: ... that children from the Białystok Ghetto (pictured) panicked when told to undress and shower upon arriving at Theresienstadt, because they knew about gas chambers? Yoninah (talk) 17:11, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Personally, I would think that "children from the Białystok Ghetto" implies that they were taken somewhere else, and it's not necessary to state where this incident took place. That said, I don't object to Alt0d and I'm inclined to let the promoter choose which hook to use. Thanks again for your help. Catrìona (talk) 19:45, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

• OK. Restoring tick for either ALT0c or ALT0d per Epicgenius' review. Yoninah (talk) 19:50, 27 September 2018 (UTC)