The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Launchballertalk 23:36, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
Sources: Lim, Ruey Yan (18 July 2022). "Patrick Tse is oldest Best Actor winner at Hong Kong Film Awards". The Straits Times. Archived from the original on 24 August 2024. Retrieved 24 August 2024. Veteran actor Patrick Tse has become the oldest actor to win the Best Actor prize at the Hong Kong Film Awards (HKFA) on Sunday (July 17), while Anita, the biopic on late Cantopop superstar Anita Mui, was the biggest winner with five awards. Tse, 85, won the award for his role as a retired assassin in the black comedy Time, which also starred veteran actress Petrina Fung Bo Bo, actor Lam Suet and former radio DJ Chung Suet Ying.; "Dad joins son with film award". The Standard. 19 July 2022. Archived from the original on 19 July 2022. Retrieved 24 August 2024. Patrick Tse Yin, aged 85, has become the oldest Best Actor winner in the Hong Kong Film Awards for his role in the 2021 film Time.
Comment: @Prince of Erebor: I would like to review this DYK later tonight or tomorrow morning if someone doesn't get to it before I do. Please consider moving the link to the front of the hook for maximum visits. Right now, it appears as the third link in the hook which could decrease hits. Note, I moved your sources back into the above heading because {{reflist-talk}} was appearing at the bottom. I think it's fine at the top. Viriditas (talk) 03:23, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
Thanks for your feedback, Viriditas. Here is a revised version:
Comment: @Prince of Erebor: I'm reading through the article now. I wanted to raise a few minor issues:
Lead
Was the film released in Asian markets as "Fight 'Till Dusk"? If possible, it would be helpful to translate that and add it, as that title makes a lot more sense than "Time".
The word "senile" is being used to describe Chau in the lead and nowhere else. There's no indication in the film that Chau is "senile" other than his poor time-management skills as a noodle chef. However, that scene in the film speaks more to automation than it does to his psychological state. This makes me wonder if the word was used in English-language promotional material. Might be best to delete "senile" and just call him a "retired contract killer". We also know that Chung used the word "senile" to describe Chau, not literally, but as a deceptive ruse to allow her to get her cell phone back and to help Chau evade the police. Perhaps that is the root of the confusion here? Of course, if the writer speaks to this term, that would be helpful to detail, but I remain suspicious of it, and this concern segues into my next point.
The word "orphaned" is used multiple times to refer to Chung, but this appears to be a different use of the term than in English. In the film, Chung is what we call in the states a kind of latchkey kid who is the product of divorced parents. In English, we wouldn't use the term orphaned, as that usually refers to a child raised without their parents due to their deaths. On the other hand, there's a good argument to be made that Chung is a metaphorical orphan, and there's probably a good English word for that kind of thing but it escapes me at the moment.
The film was premiered. You can remove "was".
Plot
The plot section has several issues. Chung tries to confess to Ching Ching, only to learn she is about to retire and get married in Macau. This actually happens later in the plot when you write Chung sells his van and gives the money as a blessing to Ching Ching. That's when he learns she is about to retire and get married in Macau. In the first part, he asks her to consider retiring and marrying him, but she implies he is too old and their relationship is purely transactional; that's the difference.
Chau is suddenly ambushed and attacked by thugs employed by Bun to kill him at his home. This may be fine, but I didn't get the impression that Bun's friends were going to kill him. Did I miss something? It's probably likely that I didn't pickup on the nuance. Did anyone say they were going to kill him? Not a big deal, but I did wonder about this.
They manage to rescue her from an underground clinic. It may be helpful to describe it as an underground abortion clinic (see for example Jane Collective). For some reason, this major plot point is glossed over and ignored, specifically with Bun compelling her to get the abortion.
Fung continues to perform as a singer in the elderly home, and Tsz-ying gives birth to the baby, which she raises together with Chau. Given the movie poster and the iconic scene, am I wrong to assume that Fung continued performing in the elderly home, but moved out to be with Chau and help him raise the baby? Or are they just enjoying the moment together? The reason I ask, is there did seem to be some unstated romantic tension between the two of them earlier in the film that was never resolved, or was it?
Cast
Lam Suet as Chung, Chau's former accomplice and getaway driver who becomes an unemployed brothel frequenter. I think the term "unemployed brothel frequenter" is a bit torturous and is deserving of a copyedit and rewrite.
Production
In the same year, Ho acquainted with actor Gordon Lam and showed him the screenplay. "Acquainted with" is odd wording. You could say "Ho became acquainted with" or some other permutation.
Lam proposed to reset the theme. Do you mean "rewrite"? I would just say "Lam proposed rewriting the theme".
with himself attaching to the project as co-writer and producer. Try "attaching himself to the project" instead.
where Ko was actually intending to pitch an original screenplay to Lam. Remove "actually".
Lam also personally invited Patrick Tse and Petrina Fung to star in the project, both of whom had stayed out of showbiz, and the two had not co-starred together for over sixty years. Try instead: "Lam invited Patrick Tse and Petrina Fung to star in the project, both of whom had stayed out of showbiz and had not co-starred together for over sixty years."
Lam cast Tse as he found the actor resembled many character traits of the main character Chau in real life, and he flew to Malaysia, where Fung had migrated, persuading her to come out of retirement. Instead, try: "Lam cast Tse for his resemblance to Chau's character traits in real life; he also flew to Malaysia to persuade Fung to come out of retirement."
Critical response
Earwig shows various unquoted passages that need quotes or paraphrasing to avoid copyvio. These include "assisted suicide for the elderly into", "the essence of friendship and family ties", and "the rare leading roles for 1960s stars Patrick Tse and Petrina Fung". There may be additional issues.
Response from nominator
Hello Viriditas, thanks for your thorough and helpful review! I have learnt a great deal from your feedback. Problems in Cast, Production, and Critical response were addressed.
Regarding Lead#3, I usually extract adjectives from sources in character descriptions to avoid original research, and "orphaned" is how SCMP describes Chung's role. (But when Chau finds his latest client to be the orphaned schoolgirl Tsz-ying (Chung Suet-ying, The Way We Keep Dancing))
As for Plot#3, if I recall correctly, that part mainly consists of a long fight sequence, which I do not think has many notable elements to write. Nonetheless, I have expanded that part slightly to explain how Bun tries to nudge Tsz-ying into having an abortion.
I also felt a bit confused by the issue in Plot#4 while writing the article, as the film never clarifies what Fung is doing in Chau's house. The entire scene is silent, accompanied only by the film's theme song. Since the character motives are so ambiguous and I could not find any sources explaining the characters' endings, I chose to use Fung's second-to-last appearance, where she performs at the elderly home, instead. I am open to your suggestions on how to rewrite this part to better align with the plot.
@Prince of Erebor: Thank you for addressing the main concerns. I'm going to do a second read through now because there's a few things that I missed that may need your attention. There's also the final issue of the hooks. Regarding ALT0, you write "Patrick Tse won the Hong Kong Film Award for Best Actor with the film Time at the age of 85, making him the oldest recipient of the award". I think it's obvious that you don't want to repeat the word "for" twice here, but I can't help but think Tse winning the award "with" the film Time just doesn't work. Yes, it should be "for", but if you do that, then you get "Hong Kong Film Award for Best Actor for the film Time". There is an obvious solution here. Try something like "... that Patrick Tse won Best Actor at the Hong Kong Film Awards for the film Time at the age of 85, making him the oldest recipient of the award?" You don't have to do it like that, but it nicely eliminates the "for" repetition. Play around with it and see if you can come up with other hooks. ALT1 was a good attempt, but I still prefer ALT0 over it. Viriditas (talk) 18:38, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
Additional issues on second read-through
Lead
the film follows a retired killer (Tse) who returns to business by providing euthanasia to suffering elderly
I wonder if this is a British English thing, but in US English, we expect "the suffering elderly". If this is a BE difference, then ignore my suggestion.
The film premiered at the 45th Hong Kong International Film Festival on 4 April 2021, followed by a theatrical release in Hong Kong on 15 July.
This might be fine, but do we really need to know the exact days of the premiere and the release in the lead? I'm all for specificity in the body, but in the lead, at least in my mind, simply writing the months should suffice. Just my opinion, of course, but I find highly detailed leads like this detract from the presentation. The reader, IMO, doesn't need to know 4 April and 15 July in the lead, as it already appears in the infobox to the right, but it's okay if you disagree and keep it there.
Fung has become a lounge singer and operator, but recently has a falling out with her son after he demands she sell her house and lounge in order to purchase
I think you can remove "recently" and "in order" as they aren't needed.
Chung, unemployed, has become a frequent brothel patron and fallen in love with a prostitute named Ching Ching.
Add "now" unemployed. My opinion is that you don't need to say "frequent brothel patron" at all, and the sentence (and story) works fine without it.
The team soon receives a new contract, but when Chau arrives at the scene, he finds the client is an old man who hires him to euthanize his terminally-ill wife to end her suffering.
Remove "at the scene" as unnecessary. Works well without it.
Chau refuses, but that night, he sees on the news that the old man has murdered his wife himself and is arrested by the police.
Try "Chau refuses, but later that night the news reports that the old man was arrested for murdering his wife."
Chau then proposes to his partners
Remove "then".
Chau is dissatisfied with her request
This might be a bit confusing to people who haven't seen the film. Chau's dissatisfaction is based on his stated code that he explains later in the film: he refuses to kill minors (a person under the age of full legal responsibility). Film plot guidelines allow you to work non-linearly here, even if I did complain about it up above in regard to Chung and Ching Ching. In any case, you could write "Chau refuses to kill minors" here, or some variation on that code to help the reader, as "dissatisfied" doesn't really address it.
Chung tries to confess to Ching Ching but is rejected
It's not clear as to what Chung is confessing here; is it his love for Ching Ching or his crimes? If I recall, he asked her to marry him. If that's what you mean by confess, then be specific.
who has impregnated her and then abandoned her
No need to say "her" twice? What about "who has impregnated and then abandoned her"? This is such a common theme in human history (man gets woman pregnant, man leaves) that I'm quite surprised there is no formal term for it.
and manages to force Bun promising to take care of the baby
Just say "and forces Bun to promise to take care of the baby".
Cast
Lam Suet as Chung, Chau's former accomplice and getaway driver who becomes an frequent brothel patron
It would be "a" frequent brothel patron here, not "an", but I recommend getting rid of the whole phrase and just saying "who falls in love with a prostitute", as that works much better
Response to additional comments
Hi Viriditas! All solved except for the premiere dates. I did not find anything in MOS:FILMLEAD, but I believe it is a local consensus to present the release dates in the leads. For example, both Furiosa: A Mad Max Saga and Megalopolis list the exact premiere dates at Cannes and the theatrical release dates in the lead. I am not suggesting we format it that way just because other articles do, but considering that these are global blockbusters and the articles receive high traffic, if including those dates really contradicts MOS:FILM, then they should have been removed. So I would prefer to keep them.
Regarding the hook, I think it is a bit difficult to put the film title at the front of the sentence. Perhaps we can use ALT2: "...Patrick Tse's performance in the film Time earned him the Hong Kong Film Award for Best Actor at the age of 85, making him the oldest recipient of the award?" —Prince of Erebor（The Book of Mazarbul） 12:31, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
Overall: Review: Prefer ALT2, followed by ALT0 as second choice. Everything looks good. Great work on this article, Prince of Erebor. As a bonus, if you could find out who played the saxophone that was overdubbed into the club scenes and add it to the music section, that would be appreciated. I think it might be very hard to find this info (I looked in the credits but didn't see it, but I might have missed it). I can't stop thinking about the saxophone filler as I really enjoyed it and it made me wonder if it had Easter egg qualities given the number of former musicians in the production. Viriditas (talk) 17:59, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
Review: Prefer ALT2, followed by ALT0 as second choice. Everything looks good. Great work on this article, Prince of Erebor. As a bonus, if you could find out who played the saxophone that was overdubbed into the club scenes and add it to the music section, that would be appreciated. I think it might be very hard to find this info (I looked in the credits but didn't see it, but I might have missed it). I can't stop thinking about the saxophone filler as I really enjoyed it and it made me wonder if it had Easter egg qualities given the number of former musicians in the production. Viriditas (talk) 17:59, 23 September 2024 (UTC)