Template:Did you know nominations/Thomas Mohr (tenor)
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Gatoclass (talk) 14:10, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
| DYK toolbox |
|---|
Thomas Mohr (tenor)
... that Thomas Mohr performed the roles of Loge, Siegmund and Siegfried in Der Ring in Minden, and founded cow stable concerts?Source: several
- Reviewed:
to come - Comment: Two performances are still in the future as I write this, but will be past when ready, - due to listening, I'm a day late, sorry. I don't know any other tenor who performed those 4 roles in one cycle. Best 17 October, his birthday.
- Reviewed:
Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 08:49, 2 October 2019 (UTC).
- Just a drive-by comment, but the cow stables part is far more eyecatchy than the roles, so I'd really suggest focusing the hook on that instead. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 03:01, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
- How about:
- ALT1
... that operatic tenor Thomas Mohr founded a music festival that is held in his agricultural estate's cow stables?
- ALT1
- Or if you really want the roles to be mentioned (though personally I think they're unnecessary if the focus will be on the cow stables), we could go with a variation of ALT0
- ALT0a
... that operatic tenor Thomas Mohr, who has played roles such as Loge, Siegmund and Siegfried in Der Ring in Minden, founded a music festival that is held in his agricultural estate's cow stables?
- ALT0a
- ALT0a is a bit under the 200 character limit and my preference remains ALT1, but that could be a possible direction if the roles must be mentioned. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 03:32, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you for offering. The roles - to my knowledge unique in the world - must be mentioned ;) - Do you have a reference that the concerts are held in the cow stables? - I wasn't there but would guess in a barn. I don't think we need to add operatic tenor. Readers would think the wrong direction, and Wagner hated the term "opera". Most readers will know that Siegfried is one of the hardest tenor roles, and those who don't will not care. If you think some description is needed say heldentenor roles, but that's hard to do because not true for Loge, and the great thing about Mohr is that he can do both, with ease, elegance and power, - if you can get a chance to hear him, do! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:17, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
- Well that was the assumption that I had based on the translation of the name given (I took a quick look at the reference but it doesn't seem to mention the music festival, at least based on Google Translate). In addition, I really don't think the mention of the roles is necessary since it would add complexity to the hook when the focus is supposed to be on the cow stables. You shouldn't assume that readers know or care about these roles, and since the focus is supposed to be on Mohr, we should be highlighting his life instead of the roles. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 13:45, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
- I came here to say that I reviewed Boophis popi. Kuhstall is in the name of the festival which translates to cow stable. I try to be patient and say that singing 3 of the most demanding roles in all of opera in one go, and a 4th one (Loge) on top, is a heroic dead he can be proud of. It's possibly unique in the world; normally, Siegmund and his son Siegfried are sung by different singers, and often Siegfried in Siegfried (5 hours, hero on stage most of the time) is done by yet again another singer than Siegfried in Götterdämmerung (5 1/2 hours, same), because each is stressful, and the requirements on the voice are different. I know of one instance when Siegfried was also Siegmund, Andreas Schager in Wiesbaden, but then it wasn't planned, - he stepped in for a sick colleague. It should be mentioned. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:50, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
- Well that was the assumption that I had based on the translation of the name given (I took a quick look at the reference but it doesn't seem to mention the music festival, at least based on Google Translate). In addition, I really don't think the mention of the roles is necessary since it would add complexity to the hook when the focus is supposed to be on the cow stables. You shouldn't assume that readers know or care about these roles, and since the focus is supposed to be on Mohr, we should be highlighting his life instead of the roles. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 13:45, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you for offering. The roles - to my knowledge unique in the world - must be mentioned ;) - Do you have a reference that the concerts are held in the cow stables? - I wasn't there but would guess in a barn. I don't think we need to add operatic tenor. Readers would think the wrong direction, and Wagner hated the term "opera". Most readers will know that Siegfried is one of the hardest tenor roles, and those who don't will not care. If you think some description is needed say heldentenor roles, but that's hard to do because not true for Loge, and the great thing about Mohr is that he can do both, with ease, elegance and power, - if you can get a chance to hear him, do! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:17, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
- How about:
- Pinging Yoninah and RebeccaGreen for possible hook suggestions or feedback on how to move forward. As for the above comment, I will have to repeat though that the average reader probably wouldn't necessarily know or care about an opera singer singing demanding opera roles, unless additional context is given. If we're going to go in the direction of the roles, it's like we're assuming that the average Wikipedia reader is very knowledgeable or an expert on opera and the ins-and-outs of that medium, which might be too much to expect from them. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 13:22, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- Siegfried, "the legendary dragon-slayer", is not operatic knowledge but plain mythology. Also repeating: a reader who doesn't know the extremes of Wagner's Ring Cycle will probably not profit from reading the article at all, or can be made curious by the cow stables, but cow stables alone sell the exceptional singer too cheap. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:28, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
A reader who doesn't know the extremes of Wagner's Ring Cycle will probably not profit from reading the article at all
. That's the thing, DYK is supposed to be interesting to a broad audience, not to a niche. Ideally, the purpose of DYK is to raise interest for a subject that people would otherwise not care about. Admitting that the hook or article is not interesting unless you are part of that niche, meaning that the hook or article has an intentionally limited audience, goes against the spirit of DYK if that is the case. I'm not saying that it's impossible to have a hook that involves the hooks, just that there could be a way to do it without limiting your audience (one of your recent hooks, about the five tenors, could be an example of that). And in many cases, perhaps including this hook, it's really not necessary to mention the roles. For example, a hook that goes "... that actor Leonardo DiCaprio, who played Jack in Titanic, did not win an Oscar until 2016?" is acceptable, but considering DiCaprio's fame, it's not really necessary and "...that actor Leonardo DiCaprio did not win an Oscar until 2016?" works as well in his particular case. In the case of Mohr, the cow stables fact is probably interesting enough by itself, and the roles feel like extra details that don't really add much to the overall point of the hook. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 14:08, 10 October 2019 (UTC)- I give up. Cow stables alone just don't do justice to one of the greatest tenors on earth. It wouldn't even mention that he sings. I give up. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:20, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- ps: What in "the legendary dragon-slayer" did you not understand. Siegfried is probably as well known as Hamlet and the Titanic, nothing operatic and niche. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:22, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- It's not that we we can't mention the roles, and we can always mention that he's a tenor (which makes it clear that singing is his job). I just don't really see why it's necessary to do so when the main hook fact would be that he started a music festival that just so happened to be held in cow stables. And I don't really see what's wrong with the cow stables part, since would likely catch the attention of even those who aren't into opera. At the very least, it would encourage more readers from varying backgrounds instead of only appealing to opera fans. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 15:17, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt and Narutolovehinata5: Again, I'm not sure I'm the best person to be making suggestions .... however, what about this? It could even be appropriate for the last hook slot, perhaps? And yes, some of the concerts are definitely in the cowshed (which is a more common expression to me than "cow stable") - there are photos [1], and the history mentions the whitewashed cowshed [2].
- ALT2: ... that tenor Thomas Mohr, who has sung the roles of Loge, Siegmund, and Siegfried in Der Ring in Minden, hosts concerts in his cowshed?
- RebeccaGreen (talk) 15:10, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- She mentioned that she wants there to be a focus on his singing, so that would have to be taken into account. I still don't think it's necessary to mention the roles (i.e. "... that tenor Thomas Mohr hosts concerts in his cowshed?" is probably a good hook by itself), but if it will make her happy, then I wouldn't be opposed to some form of ALT2. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 15:17, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- ALT2 is good unless readers will expect the cows to be in the same room. I learned a new word, thank you, Rebecca. If problems arise we can say "former cowsheds", but I bet curiosity is higher without "former". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:51, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- She mentioned that she wants there to be a focus on his singing, so that would have to be taken into account. I still don't think it's necessary to mention the roles (i.e. "... that tenor Thomas Mohr hosts concerts in his cowshed?" is probably a good hook by itself), but if it will make her happy, then I wouldn't be opposed to some form of ALT2. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 15:17, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- Siegfried, "the legendary dragon-slayer", is not operatic knowledge but plain mythology. Also repeating: a reader who doesn't know the extremes of Wagner's Ring Cycle will probably not profit from reading the article at all, or can be made curious by the cow stables, but cow stables alone sell the exceptional singer too cheap. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:28, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
Full review needed now that hook discussion has dwindled. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:50, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
New enough, long enough, neutrally written, well referenced. Unable to check for close paraphrasing as sources are in German. A QPQ needs to be submitted.- ALT2 is interesting, but I can't find most of it in the article. The article mentions Loge and Siegmund in different contexts than Siegfried; do you mean to separate
Loge and Siegmund, and Siegfried in Der Ring in Minden
, to separate the first two roles from the last which was sung in Der Ring in Minden? Also, the article only mentions the names of the concerts, and says they were open-air. It mentions nothing about being staged in a cowshed. Yoninah (talk) 17:57, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry about that, - it's all in the table of the project article, but I forgot to copy to his, done now. Loge Siegmund Siegfried Siegfried are actually 4 roles, but let's keep it simple. Makes for 3 falling-in-love scenes ;) - The article mentions "weather permitting", - when the weather is bad, the go inside. If that is not enough, we'll need RebeccaGreen who wrote above of photos. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:51, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- Yoninah, what do you think? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:12, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- OK, the roles are all cited. But aside from the name, what makes you think they perform in a cowshed? Do you have a more specific source for this fact? Yoninah (talk) 21:36, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- Me? I suggested the original, just mentioning the translation of the name. For the "in his cowsheds", we'll need Rebecca, as mentioned just above, or return to the original. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:56, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- Well, all the hooks mention concerts in cowsheds. Waiting for RebeccaGreen's input. Yoninah (talk) 22:00, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- The original doesn't, - "founded cow stable concerts". Do we have to say "founded a music festical called Kuhstallkonzerte (cow-shed concerts)"? - Clumsy, no? Better wording? "founded a music festical named for his cow-sheds"? Drop it? (But I particularly inserted it to please certain wishes for general interest.) Btw, qpq Boophis popi, also mentioned a bit higher up. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:06, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Yoninah and Gerda Arendt: I'm sorry, it was the middle of the night here. I included the links in my comment above, just above ALT2. I have now included them in the article, with a slight edit of the "Agriculture and festival" section. RebeccaGreen (talk) 23:22, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
Thank you. Foreign-language hook fact AGF (though I can read it through Google Translate) and cited inline. ALT2 good to go. Yoninah (talk) 23:27, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you, both. Please, Rebecca, no need for sorry ;) - It was in the middle of the night for me too, so I had no energy to search for the refs. Feel free to edit "my" articles and suggest hooks, any time! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:49, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Yoninah and Gerda Arendt: I'm sorry, it was the middle of the night here. I included the links in my comment above, just above ALT2. I have now included them in the article, with a slight edit of the "Agriculture and festival" section. RebeccaGreen (talk) 23:22, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- The original doesn't, - "founded cow stable concerts". Do we have to say "founded a music festical called Kuhstallkonzerte (cow-shed concerts)"? - Clumsy, no? Better wording? "founded a music festical named for his cow-sheds"? Drop it? (But I particularly inserted it to please certain wishes for general interest.) Btw, qpq Boophis popi, also mentioned a bit higher up. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:06, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- Me? I suggested the original, just mentioning the translation of the name. For the "in his cowsheds", we'll need Rebecca, as mentioned just above, or return to the original. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:56, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
