Template:Did you know nominations/The Rock Hotel

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Allen3 ^talk 09:12, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

The Rock Hotel

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... that The Rock Hotel was once the most southerly hotel in Europe?

Created/expanded by Dr. Blofeld (talk), Cbl62 (talk). Nominated by Dr. Blofeld (talk) at 10:15, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes this is a Gibraltarpedia article. I did not receive a cent for my work...♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:18, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Does this mean that in 1932 or later, there were no hotels in Malta, Crete, ...? Fram (talk) 12:05, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Fram, are you reviewing this hook? If not, i would like to. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 13:43, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm not, I am involved with this editor in other articles and it wouldn't be good if I was the actual reviewer. However, that doesn't mean that my question isn't relevant and shouldn't be taken into consideration of course. (As for why my reply isn't correctly layouted and doesn't start on a new line, I suppose it has to do with something in Dr. Blofeld's signature, but I'm not certain about that). Fram (talk) 13:49, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! Your question, of course, will not be neglected. The referred hook comes from an offline book. The snippet view shows "The most southerly hotel in Europe, The Rock". I am not sure of how much this book Owen's commerce & travel and international register can be relied upon. Do you think he [Owen] meant "mainland Europe"?
In case this source sound dubious, there are a few more hooky points in the article. Lennon and Ono exchanging their wedding vows is quite interesting. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 14:52, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Mainland Europe, yes,but it is possible entire Europe. Hotel Phoenicia in Valletta is the oldest hotel in the city built in 1939, Rock predates it by 7 years. And Crete at that time would have been largely undeveloped to accomodate for tourists. Astoria Capsis Hotel claims to be the oldest hotel in Heraklion and is only about 30 years old. There might have been small bed and breakfast type places earlier than this but likelihood is that Rock was actually the southernmost notable hotel in Europe at the time in 1932, although the source is dated 1960 so it is technically false as phonicia Hotel was existing by then. but a case could be made from 1932-1939 anyway. Malta below Valletta wouldn't have had a hotel I don't think and if the Hotel Phoenicia was the oldest from 1939... Anyway, I was also thinking a John and Yoko hook would've been more interesting. What is wrong with my signature?♦ Dr. Blofeld 06:05, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

(Signature issue: for some reason, my first reply comes straight after your text, despite having a blank line between them in the editing window: I thought that may be due to some issue with your sig, like the "span" comments, but I'm not sure).

No comment on other hooks, but this one truly isn't acceptable, due to the dubious (commercial) nature of the source, and the inaccuracy of the claim. Already in 1836, there were multiple hotels in Malta[1]. The Phoenicia Hotel is not the oldest remaining hotel either, the Imperial Hotel was established in 1865[2] and is included, together with a few others like the Hotel Angleterre, in the 1887 Baedeker[3]. The chance that all these hotels were closed between 1932 and 1939 seems small, and the source for Gibraltar reads as if it was a contemporary claim, not a "at one time" claim. Changing it to "mainland Europe" would be original research. Best is to leave out this claim and to go for something more reliably sourced and less easily refuted. Fram (talk) 06:51, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Good find, I think I'll start a few of those today. Yeah, I'll just remove it I think. I was thinking of the John and Yoko hook, can you confirm Fram that they did stay at the hotel?♦ Dr. Blofeld 07:03, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

The only source so far seems to be the Spokesman Review. But e.g. this source gives the interesting potential hook "The elegant Rock Hotel has [...] an impressive list of former guests, including Montgomery and Eisenhower while they were planning the invasion of North Africa." For this one as well, I couldn't find any other sources to support it though. But both are better than the southernmost one. Fram (talk) 07:18, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks the Spokesman source confirms it then, I had a job finding anything which specifically stated it.♦ Dr. Blofeld 07:44, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

This better?

ALT1: DYK ... that "both Winston Churchill's daughter Sarah and Thomas Touchet-Jesson, 23rd Baron Audley and John Lennon and Yoko Ono were married at The Rock Hotel in Gibraltar in the 1960s?"

Dr. Blofeld, are you the one who is suggesting this Alt1 hook?

I like this as a hook. I didn't know Sean Connery got married here - twice. But the entire hook - which is under 200 characters - is sourced at the end of one sentence or another in the article. Cool hook. Too bad you can't run the Ballad of John and Yoko with this. — Maile66 (talk) 00:15, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes ALT1.♦ Dr. Blofeld 07:13, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

This is untrue, Lennon & Ono were not married in the Rock Hotel, nor is there any evidence they went there at all. The wedding took place in the Registry Office, which now forms part of the Magistrates Court Complex, in Town Range, Gibraltar.

https://www.beatlesbible.com/1969/03/20/john-lennon-marries-yoko-ono/

"They went directly to the British Consulate Office, where they were married during a 10-minute ceremony performed by registrar Cecil Wheeler. As Gibraltar was a British colony, and Lennon was a British citizen, and they were able to go ahead at short notice......Within the hour Lennon and Ono had reboarded their aeroplane and were en route back to the Parisian hotel, the Plaza Athénée, where they had stayed on 16 March." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.166.218.108 (talk) 12:18, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Per the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Did you know/GibraltarPediA Options, Gibraltar-related articles are temporarily being reviewed by two individuals. In addition to the regular DYK criteria, at least one reviewer should also indicate whether they perceive any conflict of interest or promotional concerns about the article under review.IP addresses and Victuallers are not allowed to do the reviews.

Review 1:
OK, I'll pick this one up, as the review is still outstanding. Date and length are OK. Sourcing is fine. No COI or promotional issues. I'd suggest turning the hook around (experience suggests that the bolded link should come first or as close to first as possible), thus:

ALT2: ... that The Rock Hotel in Gibraltar was the scene of the weddings of Winston Churchill's daughter Sarah to Thomas Touchet-Jesson, 23rd Baron Audley, and John Lennon to Yoko Ono?

Though to be honest I think this would attract a lot more interest:

ALT3: ... that John Lennon married Yoko Ono at The Rock Hotel in Gibraltar?

Short and punchy is best, I've found. Prioryman (talk) 16:02, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

That would be fine..♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:20, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Review 2:
Article is new enough and long enough. I prefer ALT3. There are no copyright issues with the text. The QPQ is done. The images have good copyright rationales for use on Wikipedia. The article is formatted correctly. Clearly notable. Good to go. Thine Antique Pen (talk) 17:09, 21 October 2012 (UTC)