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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by PumpkinSky talk 00:22, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Suliman al-Reshoudi

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Created/expanded by Boud (talk), The Anome (talk). Nominated by Boud (talk) at 22:19, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

  • The WP rule given is for al. However, the words in the names are Al, not definite article but "family". Then these should be Al.Egeymi (talk) 07:03, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
  • There are two different issues here: the short-term decision on what to put in the DYK hook (and, at least, in the expanded article on al-Reshoudi), and the long-term correction/clarification that seems to be needed to Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Arabic#Definite_article and Arabic name. The guideline itself presently gives Turki ibn Faisal as-Sa`ud, Turki al-Faisal, which look to me like "al-" or "as-" (assimilated al-) for "family".
  1. short-term: If you can provide Arabic language sources for one or both of al-Reshoudi and al-Rasheed which write آل , as in Khalid bin Faisal Al Saud (arabic script without a source, but apparently undisputed), then IMHO there should be no controversy to change one or both, respectively. In the case of e.g. ar:محمدالبجادي and Mohammad Fahad al-Qahtani, at least as of 19:52, 6 September 2012 (UTC), editors other than me (AFAIR) wrote ال , which looks like the definite article, rather than آل, which so far i only see used for "House of" as in House of Saud and members of the House of Saud.
  2. long-term: The place to propose a change to the MOS is Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Arabic. Being a relatively new user does not mean you are prevented from changing (or at least proposing a change) in a guideline! Especially when you apparently have specialist knowledge in the topic. :) I have no idea what usage patterns there are around the Arabic-speaking world, and to what extent we should correct/update Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Arabic. Questions I would pose would be: do Arabic speakers themselves really know whether it's "the" or "family of" in various places? Is this standard or dependent on geographical (e.g. Saudi Arabians one way, Moroccans another way) or demographical profile (elites one way, working class another way)? There's no point correcting just a few articles and leaving a huge number that use the style of recommended in the guideline in the obvious place for Wikipedia editors.
Boud (talk) 19:52, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
آل is listed in Arabic dictionaries as a derivative of root alif-waw-lam, but I suspect a connection with أهل... Not sure what to advise about it in general, but it would seem unlikely to occur before a nisba adjective, and is mainly to indicate collective dynastic or quasi-dynastic names... AnonMoos (talk) 13:54, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Attempted summary of last 10 days' discussion:
  1. short-term: No sources claiming "آل" or "أهل" for al-Reshoudi seem to have turned up, so I don't see justification for overriding Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Arabic#Definite_article in his case. I added a source for al-Rasheed using her own Arabic version of her name, مضاوي الرشيد, which looks like it uses the definite article. I've proposed a move to al- in order to get at least some sort of decision for this specific case, although this case is more complicated - al-Rasheed is based in London, so her preferred latin transcription might apply under WP:COMMON, as if someone notable were called John Andrew The Smith and "The" could remain capitalised. The place to discuss the al-Rasheed article name is: Talk:Madawi_Al-Rasheed#Requested_move.
  2. long-term: A discussion has started at the MOS/Arabic page. People arguing for a modification of the guideline to help Wikipedians guess that a name is likely to be a "آل"/"أهل"/House-of- name (in the absence of an Arabic language source) are not very active in the discussion, so the guideline seems unlikely to be updated soon.
Boud (talk) 21:43, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
  • This article needs a full review. Whether the final name in the hook should be rendered "al-Rasheed" or "Al-Rasheed" can be determined based on the result of the move request currently at Talk:Madawi_Al-Rasheed#Requested_move. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:46, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
    Clarification: Just to clarify what I think BlueMoonset is saying: the long discussion above refers to a point of style, and does not judge whether the article is new, long enough and generally within policy. Given the result of the move request at Talk:Madawi_Al-Rasheed#Requested_move (referred to by BlueMoonset), I am proposing ALT1 to remove the redirect. Boud (talk) 19:14, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
    ALT1: ... that human rights lawyer Suliman al-Reshoudi was convicted of possessing literature by social anthropologist Madawi al-Rasheed?
  • ALT1 checks out with its source, expansion and date are good, and the article appears to be as neutral as it can be from what I'm seeing under Google News. No plagarism detected in a source check, and everything is cited. Good to go. – Maky « talk » 19:40, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
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