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Round symbols for illustrating comments about the DYK nomination The following is an archived discussion of Stephen Stepanian's DYK nomination. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page; such as this archived nomination"s (talk) page, the nominated article's (talk) page, or the Did you knowDYK comment symbol (talk) page. Unless there is consensus to re-open the archived discussion here. No further edits should be made to this page. See the talk page guidelines for (more) information.

The result was: promoted by Allen3 talk 19:59, 23 March 2013 (UTC).

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Stephen Stepanian

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Created by Proudbolsahye (talk). Self nominated at 19:34, 1 March 2013 (UTC).

  • The article itself appears to be OK, but what's with all this "ethnic Armenian" stuff? Virtually every biographical article hook you submitted for DYK emphasises that the subject was an ethnic Armenian. It seems odd and sounds odd. How is it relevant to the rest of the hook? Are ethnic Armenians otherwise unable to invent things? Surtsicna (talk) 16:56, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Thats fine we can change it to American Armenian.Proudbolsahye (talk) 16:59, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
  • There is still no need to give undue weight to his ethnicity or nationality. It is not relevant to the rest of the hook and does not make it any more hooky. Surtsicna (talk) 18:16, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
  • I put it because I have a particular interests in the contributory efforts of Armenians in various societies throughout the world. This does not create undue weight, especially when the article itself only mentions his ethnicity in one sentence. I personally find it interesting that a small minority of Armenians have contributed so much to various societies around the world and therefore I believe many other Wikipedia users would have the same interest as well. This is no different than someone being interested contributions of homosexual's in America or Communists in Angola or Nepal or whatever and making DYK's reflecting this. You should also check out the recent Gibraltar-related DYK's where dozens of articles on the ever so small British territory of Gibraltar received dozens and dozens of DYK's where a serious concern of undue weight wasn't raised against them. Proudbolsahye (talk) 18:47, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Please do not get me wrong. I am sure that you do have an interest in Armenian contributions to science, sports and technology, but I sincerely believe that an ordinary reader's response to a statement that Stephen Stepanian was an ethnic Armenian would be: "OK... so what?" There is nothing wrong with saying that he was Armenian, but pointing that out so strongly raises the question: are Armenians generally unable to do what this person did?
  • ALT1: ... that the first concrete mixer truck (pictured) was patented by Armenian inventor Stephen Stepanian?
  • In ALT1, his ethnicity is mentioned as a descriptor. He is identified as primarily an inventor, not as primarily an Armenian. Surtsicna (talk) 19:18, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
  • I understand. Thank you for raising these points. I will try to orient it towards a more easy flowing DYK from now on. Thank you! P.S. ALT1 is fine with me. I also added wlink for Armenian since not too many people even know what it is. Proudbolsahye (talk) 19:22, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
  • I am glad I was able to make myself clear. However, there appears to be another issue. The article about the concrete mixer truck says that it was invented by "by Columbus industrialist Gebhardt Jaeger", while the article about Stepanian claims that he invented "the predecessor of the concrete mixer truck". That would make the hook factually inaccurate. I am sure there is a simple solution for this problem as well. Surtsicna (talk) 19:32, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Gebhardt Jaeger is the inventor of the concrete mixer but not of the concrete mixer truck which Stepanian has been accredited for inventing even though his patent wasn't accepted due to what many consider "unjust" reasons. It was however approved at a later date as the article purports. Proudbolsahye (talk) 19:45, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Needs a reviewer for ALT1, plus a check on the most recent issue raised. BlueMoonset (talk) 18:45, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
  • New enough, long enough, well-sourced, no close paraphrasing seen. The correction about Stepanian's invention of "the predecessor of the concrete mixer truck" has been made in the article. However, both the original and alt hooks aren't so interesting. How about:
  • ALT2: ... that Stephen Stepanian's patent for the first concrete mixer truck (pictured) was rejected in 1917, because it was believed that a truck couldn't support the weight of a concrete mixer? Yoninah (talk) 16:18, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Thank you for your insight Yoninah. I still believe the original ALT1 is more interesting and straight to the point. I have always disliked long (in this case longer) DYK's because itll bore the reader. When its short and concise it will make a better impact and afterall, that is what DYK's should do. BTW: I believe you made an honest mistake by adding an "ALT1" since there is already an ALT1 above therefore I changed the ALT1 to a ALT2 since we already have an ALT1 up there.

P.S. I will make an archive shortly. Thank you for your valuable advice. Proudbolsahye (talk) 17:49, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

  • OK, it's your call. Hook ref verified. I took out the extra "the". ALT1 good to go. Yoninah (talk) 19:42, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Proudbolsahye has just added an image. Although the media file says that you created it, I'm not sure what this means. Did you draw it yourself, or scan it? Aren't patents copyrighted? Yoninah (talk) 21:13, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Its my creation since I redrew and modified it from another picture. I've asked an Admin if I can do so he said its fine. Proudbolsahye (talk) 21:30, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
  • OK, thanks for the explanation. Everything's good to go. Yoninah (talk) 22:30, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
  • I have unstruck ALT2. I think it is by far the most interesting hook. When you say "it's your call", that's simply not true. The nominator's wishes should always be considered, but the more important consideration should always be to make the most interesting, sourced hook possible. And reviewing just that hook, it gets a because the fact is in the article, with an inline ref to an offline source immediately after it. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 23:53, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Mandarax I don't support ALT2 for the following reasons 1) its too long 2) there are different sources that say different things about why it didnt get accepted Proudbolsahye (talk) 00:07, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
  • I've added "reportedly" to ALT2 to address your second concern. Even with this addition, the hook is still only 177 characters, which is well within acceptable limits. I absolutely agree that a shorter hook is generally better if it's interesting. A longer, interesting hook is definitely preferable to a shorter one which is so boring that it basically says that an invention was patented by an inventor. If what's really important to you is that it should say "Armenian", go ahead and add that to ALT2, and it'll still be within the 200 character limit. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 01:00, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

← Proudbolsahye tweaked ALT2 and asked me to re-tweak it. Since (pictured) doesn't count in the hook length, ALT3 is 186 characters. I removed "in 1917" and added "initially", indicating that the patent was later approved. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 02:25, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

  • Thanks for stepping in, Mandarax. I also don't understand Proudbolsahye's insistence on short hooks if they're not interesting, but it's not my nature to argue with people. The goal of DYK is to attract attention, not to post hooks that will hardly get any hits. Glad you liked my suggestion :) Yoninah (talk) 16:44, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
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