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Round symbols for illustrating comments about the DYK nomination The following is an archived discussion of Sophie Matisse's DYK nomination. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page; such as this archived nomination"s (talk) page, the nominated article's (talk) page, or the Did you knowDYK comment symbol (talk) page. Unless there is consensus to re-open the archived discussion here. No further edits should be made to this page. See the talk page guidelines for (more) information.

The result was: promoted by Ashwin147 (talk) 18:54, 21 April 2013 (UTC).

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Sophie Matisse

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Created by Penwatchdog (talk). Self nominated at 10:11, 8 April 2013 (UTC).

  • An excellent and well-written article. Easily long enough. The hooks check out, (personally I like ALT 2, more interesting with the link to Picasso and Guernica) A query about expansion though. If you take March 29 as a start date the article has been expanded nearly x500, I'm guessing the article has been substantially changed over recent months because in August the article was 18k. Dunno the rules about this, I did a very brief history compare which shows a lot of stuff about "ballpoint pens"(?) being removed, so I think the current article has been properly expanded. Hillbillyholiday talk 14:44, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Ah, my mistake. I didn't read the History carefully enough. I didn't realize your previous sandbox edits were included in the Sophie Matisse Revision history. It was moved from sandbox on the 6th, good to go! Hillbillyholiday talk 15:00, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
Thanks Hillbilly. Here are some fine-tuned revisions of the above ALT 2:

I'm fine with whichever ALT 2 apostrophe is decided to be grammatically acceptable; sorry, punctuation skills were never a strong point and I'm spoiled to leaving that to editors. Yes, as Hillbillyholiday has noted, unrelated sandbox activity was inadvertently left exposed in the edit history but a kind stranger has since provided a cloaking device to cover my privates. Penwatchdog (talk) 03:38, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

  • Needs a new reviewer for the various ALT hook versions. It is possible to promote using the original hook, but the interesting ALTs need the usual checking and approval in order to be used. BlueMoonset (talk) 14:26, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
  • I've added a reference to support the Matisse / Picasso rivalry because I couldn't find the statement by following the given link. The other two statements in the hook are fine. Am I disqualified from reviewing now because I provided an ALT hook? If not, then I think the article's good to go! Hillbillyholiday talk 14:51, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
Just occurred to me - do we need a source for the "considered daring" part of the hook? Hillbillyholiday talk 14:55, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Hillbillyholiday, thanks for adding the additional source on Matisse vs. Picasso. Yes, "considered daring" will need to be sourced. You are indeed disqualified from reviewing any hook you suggested per WP:DYKSG#H2: "You're not allowed to approve your own hook or article." None of those ALT hooks can be used until they're reviewed by someone independent of yourself and Penwatchdog. At the moment, as I noted, the article is approved, but with the original hook only: the ALT hooks need that independent reviewer. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:17, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
  • There's a source for the "rivalry," it should appear right in there, or maybe in one of the others, I'll have a look now. No rush on this. Penwatchdog (talk) 16:02, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
Here's the line as it appears in the source provided: "Stranger than a technicolor Guernica is the idea that a 21st-century Matisse should take on Picasso, H.Matisse's venerated rival, whose rocky relationship..."
(theres no direct link to that source page; it appears within the "Press" section of her website among a kind of tear-sheet portfolio which requires further clicking once you arrive at that Press section... problem? I've provided the specifics for that particular tear sheet within the source details (Issue/Author/pages/etc))
But I remember pulling the word "daring" to combine from a separate source, which i'll have to continue diggin for; literally though "...S.Matisse dares to colorize..." like that.
Couldn't the "stranger...idea" be interpreted as "daring", or is that spinning it too much? Or, see ALT 3 below.
Penwatchdog (talk) 17:39, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Reporting back with another ALT hook reworded just in case I can't find my "daring" ref, or if the aforementioned "strange...idea" ref doesn't pass for "daring"...
ALT 3 ... that Sophie Matisse's reinterpretation of Guernica was considered an ironic choice for an artist whose great-grandfather Henri Matisse was known to be an artistic rival of Pablo Picasso?
I think "ironic" fits with what's described in the source i noted yesterday (above), whaddaya say folks?
I'm having a hard time digging for the "daring" source though I know it exists, and I'm running low on focus to this, so I'll offer up another just-in-case:
ALT 4 ... that Sophie Matisse's reinterpretation of Guernica was thought a strange idea for an artist whose great-grandfather Henri Matisse was known to be an artistic rival of Pablo Picasso?
Personally I think "ironic" oughta be reasonable but any of the hooks provided thus far have my endorsement! Penwatchdog (talk) 05:43, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Reviewer still needed for the many ALT hooks. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:17, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
  • If I might add: Hillbilly did not, in fact, suggest any of the hooks. Hillbilly merely corrected punctuation of my preferred hook, of which everything after that is now just about hook-sourcing or variations to comply with existing sourcing. Come back Hillbilly! (or anyone else?) Penwatchdog (talk) 09:59, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Good to know: in that case, Hillbillyholiday can certainly continue reviewing. In future, Penwatchdog, please be sure to sign all of your edits on DYK templates, including added ALTs, so the trail of additions—especially who suggested which ALT—is clear to everyone, since anyone can suggest ALT hooks at any time. Indeed, Hillbillyholiday's question—"Am I disqualified from reviewing now because I provided an ALT hook?"—certainly led me to conclude that the unsigned ALTs were his, so I'm glad you cleared this up. BlueMoonset (talk) 14:15, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
Er, sorry to muddy the waters again, but I did post hook ALT 2D, which as Penwatchdog says, was really a tweak to remove a few words. I forgot to sign after it. Hillbillyholiday talk 14:59, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

review-recap for those just tuning in:

  • The original Hook ("pedigree..."), ALT 1 ("discouraged..."), and ALT 2 ("daring move") are all my first set of submissions.
  • Hillbilly inserted his review (inadvertently?) IN BETWEEN them, which may have confused the situation.
  • ALT 2B and 2C are also mine, the only differences: the apostrophe ('s) dilemma, and (my) addition of "artistic" to "rival."
  • 2D is Hillbilly's, but, its merely a confirm of the 2C apostrophe, and a removal of my "artistic" (which i'm fine with).
  • Everything after that are solutions to answer the "daring" dilemma... for which I provide "ironic" or "strange idea" depending on which is the acceptable interpretation of the source material (above bold). I'm late for a hiatus so any help pushing this through is appreciated! Thanks in advance. Penwatchdog (talk) 04:36, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
Third time lucky..? I think Penwatchdog has satisfied all the points raised previously. I would personally go with the ALT4 'strange' hook - as that's what's in the quote, but I don't have a big problem with the others either. Hillbillyholiday talk 05:26, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
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