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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted ALT1f by starship.paint (exalt) 13:14, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

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Samuel Iling-Junior

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Iling-Junior with Juventus U19 in 2021
Iling-Junior with Juventus U19 in 2021

Improved to Good Article status by Dr Salvus (talk). Self-nominated at 23:19, 14 January 2023 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems

Hook eligibility:

  • Cited: Yes
  • Interesting: No - n
  • Other problems: No - Poorly worded, see below
Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
QPQ: Done.

Overall: Article is new and long enough (GA yesterday), sourcing and prose is good. Earwig shows no issues. Hook isn't the greatest IMO; it is a little confusing, changes from past to present tense, and has an potential inaccuracy (readers may think that he entered, scored, and assisted within a span of two minutes based on how the hook is worded, which is incorrect according to the article). The assist on Fagioli's winner after 41 seconds is a much better hook fact in my opinion, and more easily digestible. QPQ also still needed.

Arleady knew I need QPQ. See no issues with the hook. Better waiting for a second opinion. Dr Salvus 16:22, 15 January 2023 (UTC) PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 05:19, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
I agree that the hook needs to be changed or reworded. Even assuming most of the world is a football fan, it's hard to find the main idea here since the hook meanders and doesn't get to the main point clearly enough. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:56, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
It's simple: entrance to the field at the 70th minute, assist for 4-2 at the 77th, key pass for 4-3 at the 79th, he was about to save Allegri from a humiliation, in his Champions League debut. Dr Salvus 21:30, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
We understand what the hook means, it's just not that interesting or broadly appealing. "Super sub scores game winning goal" is one thing but "super sub almost makes his team not lose a game that isn't really all that notable" is another. Also, again, the hook is poorly written, so even if this fact were the one that ended up getting a tick, it will have to be reworded for grammar and brevity. I am happy to recommend better hooks from the article if you'd like, or even a reword of this one. Like this:
ALT1: ... that Samuel Iling-Junior tallied two assists for Juventus F.C. within eight minutes of entering a game in 2022?
Something like that. Much more concise and doesn't give a ton of unnecessary information that isn't directly relevant to the fact itself; that information is, however, still in the article and will be available to readers if they find the hook interesting and click through to the article. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 21:43, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
Not being able of differentiating a goal from an assist is a blasphemy for us football lovers... But no, yours has too little content and it's horrible. I do want to point out that he was subbed in when the coach thought: "we've arleady lost, what risks can a youngster like him create at this moment?" And yet, he almost saved the team from losing in his CL debut. Dr Salvus 21:56, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
Well, we have two opinions that your proposed hook will not work, so I'm not going to give it a tick. I'm sorry that you think my alternate proposal is terrible. Unfortunately none of us, not even you, know exactly what the coach was thinking at the time he decided to sub on Iling-Junior, and "almost saved his team from losing" really is not an interesting fact in and of itself. Please propose another hook or allow me (or somebody else) to come up with some alternates or we'll have to give up on this DYK. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 00:04, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
WP:DYKCRIT may be of interest: The hook should include a definite fact that is mentioned in the article and likely to be perceived as unusual or intriguing by readers with no special knowledge or interest. WP:DYKSG states: Don't assume everyone worldwide knows what country or sport you're talking about. Football may be the world's most popular sport, but not everyone is well-versed in it, and hooks need to ensure that even people with no knowledge or only passing knowledge about a topic (football in this case) can still understand it. We are writing for general readers, not solely for football fans, and so the hook has to appeal primarily to the first group and perhaps only secondarily to the second.
@PCN02WPS: I admit to not being a huge football fan (more of a casual fan of the sport at most), but making two assists withing 8 minutes of entering a game isn't as impressive as scoring two goals within 8 minutes of a game is it? I don't think the hook fact itself is unsalvageable but perhaps it could be worded better? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:10, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
@Narutolovehinata5: you are correct in that if he had scored 2 goals in 8 minutes rather than 2 assists in 8 minutes it would have been much more impressive. Or if he had assisted a game-winning goal. Something other than "his team almost didn't lose", which sounds sort of pathetic to me. I proposed an alternate way to word the ALT0 hook fact but it was shot down by nom as "horrible"; there are plenty of other facts in the article suitable for a hook (one of which I suggested) but nom doesn't seem interested. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 06:56, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
@PCN02WPS: If that's the case then I would second the motion of the nomination being marked for closure if the nominator cannot agree to an alternative hook fact or wording. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 07:04, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
@Dr Salvus: I will be away from Wikipedia until later tomorrow afternoon; please provide a reworded ALT0 that follows DYKCRIT and DYKSG as noted above or an alternate hook/hook fact by then. If this has not been done when I log back on I will be marking the nomination for closure and we’ll wrap this up. Thank you! PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 14:32, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

ALT2: ...that Samuel Iling-Junior (pictured) became a Juventus first-team player in December 2022 when he had played only nine matches with their Juventus Next Gen reserve-team in more than a year?

Want to add that this happened although Juventus' coach Allegri is one who does not trust youngsters at all (he hasn't played much for the first team).

Sources:

Will do something similar at Dean Huijsen. Dr Salvus 16:53, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

we’ll take it. If a prep builder wants to slim it down they should feel free. ALT2 approved. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 15:57, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
  • @Dr Salvus: Thanks for your work on this article. I have some ideas for more ALT hooks, but wanted to ask... When Iling-Junior made his Champions League debut, was that with the NextGen team, or was he like a special NextGen sub for the Juventus first team? cc: PCN02WPS Cielquiparle (talk) 08:27, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
@Cielquiparle:, the second one. NextGen can't even qualify for Champions League. Dr Salvus 19:06, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
@Dr Salvus and PCN02WPS: One proposal for ALT hook below:
What do you think? I know it seems simple, but think it's worth explaining the bigger picture, which I think sounds impressive even if you don't closely follow football. Cielquiparle (talk) 13:52, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
Cielquiparle Sorry, don't get this wrong but the hook is unwatchable. It's very reductive and this does not show anything special. Could be a hook for a mediocre player. Dr Salvus 22:20, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
Pinging @Kingsif: I think you have 100 times more successful footaball DYKs than me. What would you advise here? Cielquiparle (talk) 22:32, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
Hi! I did advise on the GA review for this article, but I will give some views here. I feel I might be too involved to do a review, but 3O should be fine. I think alt0 is too wordy and particular; I think alt1 is fine - I specifically reject the ideas that it has too little content and that it paints the subject or his team negatively. I think alt2, as well as being fairly poor English that would need a rephrase anyway, isn't particularly interesting for anyone who isn't a Juve fan - it needs the context that the coach did not often include young players at that point in time to be remarkable. Alt3 similarly presents nothing remarkable. I believe I did mention when I commented on the GA that there obviously wasn't much content there - he's a young player. I suppose there are some questions, then: will the nominator accept alt1, or do we ignore nominator wishes, as is acceptable; or are there other alt hook proposals? Kingsif (talk) 13:16, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
ALT1 is even worse than ALT3. However, ALT1 could go well if written diversly. ALT1b: ... that Samuel Iling-Junior (pictured) was involved in two Juventus's goals within eight minutes of debuting in the UEFA Champions League? Dr Salvus 21:18, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
I agree ALT1 has potential if we just add more detail. I like ALT1b...not sure if "involved in" or "assisted" is better. The other possibility is to add his age, so:
@Cielquiparle: @Dr Salvus: To be honest, ALT1c looks like a very good compromise to me! Oltrepier (talk) 10:27, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
  • @Cielquiparle:, @Oltrepier: unfortunatley, Iling-Jr did not make the assist in one of those two goals but he was involved in both actions. Writing that he made two assists is wrong. Dr Salvus 20:27, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
@Dr Salvus: You are right, we do need to reword it since the second assist wasn't officially recognised, but just so you know...in the UK, the Evening Standard reported: Samuel Iling-Junior’s two assists in 43 first-team minutes at Juventus have alerted the world to his talents and sent a tinge of regret toward Chelsea...Almost immediately after his introduction, he set up a goal for Arkadiusz Milik and two minutes later laid one on for Weston McKennie, without officially getting an assist. Cielquiparle (talk) 06:43, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
How is that? Cielquiparle (talk) 14:27, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
Cielquiparle No, it wasn't Iling who passed the ball to Milik, who scored the second goal, so it should not be considered an assist. Can't we just say that he was involved in two goals? Dr Salvus 19:53, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
Dr Salvus ALT1e is correct in that regard as far as I can tell - if we want to simplify we could also go with this one:
ALT1f: ... that Samuel Iling-Junior (pictured) was involved in two goals for Juventus within eight minutes of debuting in the UEFA Champions League?
though I'm not sure if you'll want the info about one being an assist in the hook. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 02:29, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
Alt1f is fine. Dr Salvus 06:20, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
Awesome! Since I wrote that I will ping @Narutolovehinata5: to give this one a tick (if they don't mind) since they were uninvolved in coming up with the hook. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 06:53, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
I'm okay with ALT1f although I'll leave the final approval to another editor. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 07:02, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
In need of a new reviewer to give their blessing to ALT1f. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 16:07, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
I co-sign ALT1f, too, but since I already left a message above, I probably can't leave the green tick myself: sorry for it... : ( Oltrepier (talk) 10:14, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
Restoring green tick, only ALT1f is approved per consensus. Have struck the other hooks (including one I suggested). Someone other than me, please promote. Personally I think it's a rather eye-catching picture. ;) Cielquiparle (talk) 12:55, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
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