Template:Did you know nominations/Raphaëlle Boitel
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 16:35, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
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Raphaëlle Boitel
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Raphaëlle Boitel with James Thierrée
- ... that Raphaëlle Boitel did street performance contortion to earn tuition for circus school when she was eight? Source:Le Monde, 20 minutes
- ALT1:... that Raphaëlle Boitel did street performance to earn tuition for circus school when she was eight, and toured internationally on stage when she was thirteen? Source:Le Monde, 20 minutes
- Reviewed: Ram Nath Chawla
Moved to mainspace by GRuban (talk). Self-nominated at 13:28, 9 March 2019 (UTC).
Interesting life on good sources, French sources accepted AGF, no copyvio obvious. The image is excellent and licensed, but unfortunately not in small size. - What does "choreograph an opera" mean? Choreograph the dance scenes in an opera? - Please check use of her first/given name. At age 8, just first name might be sufficient, later last name only unless ambiguous. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:18, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you Gerda! I can live without the image. I admit, I'm not really sure what "choreographing an opera" entails; I'm guessing it varies, but bow to your expertise in this area. The La Scala source, which is in English, merely says "Choreography: Raphaëlle Boitel" - does Macbeth even have dance scenes? And yet I lead with it since I get the impression that doing anything this side of being an usher at La Scala is a big deal, especially for the first time - correct? She certainly emphasizes it on her professional blurbs. The source about La Belle Helene gives her multiple mentions, as there she did apparently impress the critic with her dance choreography, I don't know if that is all she did for the opera. For Alcione, though, she apparently introduced circus scenes (the accompanying article photo has people hanging in the air from hooks) to the opera, which again impressed the critic. Reduced first name use, except in one place where it does seem required to reduce ambiguity. Thanks again! --GRuban (talk) 17:34, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not familiar enough with how to say it. All operas for Paris had to have ballet, which include a revised version of Macbeth. Perhaps: provided the choreography for the opera? The wording "choreograph the opera" appears 2 times on the English Wikipedia, "choreographed the opera" 3 times, - that looks rather limited. Perhaps ask project opera? (link on my user page) - If there's a good short wording, it could go to a hook, because yes, La Scala is IT. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:15, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
- Asked WP:Opera, done per their advice. --GRuban (talk) 14:09, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
Hi, I came by to promote ALT0, though I would write it this way to remove the sea of blue:- ALT0a: ... that at age eight, Raphaëlle Boitel worked as a contortionist street performer to earn tuition for circus school?
- However, there is no inline cite for the sentence containing the hook fact. Two of the sources at the end of the paragraph are foreign-language, but the English one says she was 9 years old when she did this. Yoninah (talk) 16:13, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Yoninah: You mean this English source? I admit I don't weight it as highly as the French language ones, and didn't list it in the two sources at the top of this DYK. First, it's an interview, which is WP:ABOUTSELF, so OK for non-controversial stuff, but isn't for information that could be questioned; clearly you're questioning the age, right?
I'm using it in the paragraph mainly for the statement that Thierree wasn't just her boss, but a family friend (which could be implied from the fact that they met at school then toured together en famille for quite a few years, but it's nice to have it spelled out). Second, that interview article is self contradictory on the age point: note the very first section says "I began in circus when I was ten, performing on the street...", while the section you're presumably referring to says "What inspired you to start circus on the street? ... we needed money. I was about nine and my brother was 13.". The "ten" just doesn't work with the math of when she was born and when she started circus school, by the way, while "about nine" doesn't actually contradict eight. Also, it's an interview by someone who knows a lot about the circus, but is not a professional journalist, and while Boitel speaks English passably (better than I speak French!) it is clearly not her first language, and, well, she is an artist, not a historian or mathematician (I've met her for about 5 minutes after a performance, which is what inspired me to write this article), so I wouldn't be shocked if a misunderstanding or mistranslation crept in somewhere. So I'm going with the explicit statement by Le Monde, "Ils ont 12 et 8 ans lorsqu’ils partent sur les routes montrer leur petit spectacle...", which is: "They are 12 and 8 years old when they go on the roads showing their little show...". You can trust me, or put it through Google Translate if you like. Note the Le Monde article is written by a journalist, not an interview, about the whole Boitel family, so I would expect the journalist didn't get it just from her, but rather the whole clan, and I would trust their collective recollections more. I know I certainly wouldn't trust my own memories on the exact details of what happened when I was eight-nine as much as I would trust those of my family. You'll notice our article about Le Monde says "It is one of the most important and widely respected newspapers in the world". Of course that doesn't mean it's perfect, but I (and our rules about reliable sources!) do think it's noticeably better than the personal recollections of someone four times as old as when they were remembering. I'll add the LeMonde cite directly after the relevant sentence in our article, and will accept your hook suggestion. --GRuban (talk) 09:09, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
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- Hi, I came by to promote this, but the last paragraph is missing a citation, per Rule D2. Yoninah (talk) 21:13, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Yoninah: Done, basically. (The cites are marginal, but I think they'll have to suffice, as these are minor roles, we just won't find in depth articles about them. Honestly, the best source would be the IMDB link which is in External links, but that's partly user-generated, so doesn't qualify.) --GRuban (talk) 15:58, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
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- Asked WP:Opera, done per their advice. --GRuban (talk) 14:09, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not familiar enough with how to say it. All operas for Paris had to have ballet, which include a revised version of Macbeth. Perhaps: provided the choreography for the opera? The wording "choreograph the opera" appears 2 times on the English Wikipedia, "choreographed the opera" 3 times, - that looks rather limited. Perhaps ask project opera? (link on my user page) - If there's a good short wording, it could go to a hook, because yes, La Scala is IT. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:15, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you Gerda! I can live without the image. I admit, I'm not really sure what "choreographing an opera" entails; I'm guessing it varies, but bow to your expertise in this area. The La Scala source, which is in English, merely says "Choreography: Raphaëlle Boitel" - does Macbeth even have dance scenes? And yet I lead with it since I get the impression that doing anything this side of being an usher at La Scala is a big deal, especially for the first time - correct? She certainly emphasizes it on her professional blurbs. The source about La Belle Helene gives her multiple mentions, as there she did apparently impress the critic with her dance choreography, I don't know if that is all she did for the opera. For Alcione, though, she apparently introduced circus scenes (the accompanying article photo has people hanging in the air from hooks) to the opera, which again impressed the critic. Reduced first name use, except in one place where it does seem required to reduce ambiguity. Thanks again! --GRuban (talk) 17:34, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
