Template:Did you know nominations/Prié blanc

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by PFHLai (talk) 21:04, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Prié blanc

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~~... that Prié blanc is likely to originate from Aosta Valley, near Mont Blanc (valley pictured}?~~

Created by Agne27 (talk). Nominated by Matty.007 (talk) at 12:27, 7 December 2013 (UTC).

The article is new and long enough. It's well-written and got plenty of inline citations, but unfortunately relies almost exclusively on a single source. As this source is a printed book I don't have access to, I haven't been able to check for copyvios, so perhaps another reviewer could attend to that. As for the hook, I'm concerned it doesn't provide enough context for readers to understand just what "Prié blanc" is—given the image and the rest of the sentence, I assumed it was a mountain or some other geographical feature. Please consider changing the wording to something like "... that the Prié blanc grape is likely to originate…". Also, the reference to the image seems out of place. Why not "likely to originate from Aosta Valley (pictured), near Mont Blanc"? —Psychonaut (talk) 12:32, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

OK, that's fine by me. Thanks, Mat ty.007 17:21, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Just making the above suggestions into ALT1: ~~... that the Prié blanc grape is likely to originate from Aosta Valley (pictured), near Mont Blanc?~~ MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 20:38, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

I don't think either hook is viable, given the article's text and sourcing, so I've struck them both. Given how much emphasis is given on the fact that the origin could be in Italy or Spain—the article makes this point in the intro and at several points later on, and a photo caption in the article of the image used in this nomination states merely that the Valle d'Aosta is "one possible origin"—the hooks aren't adequately supported. Indeed, the "likely" text refers to the direction of the grape's travel between Italy and Switzerland, and not the Italy/Spain connection at all. (I originally took a look at this because "likely to originate" seemed to me to be an odd phrasing: "likely to have originated" made more sense, with the past tense rather than the infinitive. When I looked at it, though, the facts seemed to be the greater issue.) BlueMoonset (talk) 17:29, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
- How about Alt 2: ~~... that there have been two clones of Prié blanc?~~ Mat ty.007 17:31, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunately, not only is ALT2 not given an inline source in the sentence where the article talks about there being two clones, but it isn't accurate or particularly interesting (unless you think cloning isn't what it really is in viticulture, in which case it might be). The paragraph is talking about clones in Valle d'Aosta, which doesn't mean there aren't more clones elsewhere in Italy or in Switzerland (or weren't). BlueMoonset (talk) 23:19, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

In reply to the sourcing issue, I asked Agne27 [[1]], and he replied that each paragraph is sourced.

Alt 3: ... that Prié blanc has a close genetic relationship to several other grape varieties grown in the Valle d'Aosta region? Mat ty.007 08:47, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, each paragraph is sourced: they're all taken from the same single source. However, the particular statement here that supports ALT3 does not have its own source citation, an absolute requirement, even though it's almost certainly the same one, and something you should always be taking into account when you propose hooks. I would feel better if at least one more source was added, and if the Synonyms section wasn't effectively a conversion of FN2's four-column table into a comma-separated list with a couple of names added along with two parenthetical comments, and a single chunk of several names omitted. Given how close it is to the source, I suspect the bulk of it should be blockquoted to satisfy Wikipedia's requirements; I'll check with Nikkimaria to get her take on it. BlueMoonset (talk) 22:28, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that slipped my mind, sourced now. I will wait for what Nikkimaria says. Thanks, Mat ty.007 17:45, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

It turns out that lists like the one in the Synonyms section aren't an issue, so I was unnecessarily concerned there. But a single source for an entire article (except a minor section) is a concern; fortunately, Agne27 has added several online sources. One suggestion with ALT3: add "other" before "grape varieties", so the reader already knows that this is grade grown in Valle d'Aosta. BlueMoonset (talk) 20:52, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Done. Mat ty.007 09:12, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

I'd like a new opinion of the article and its sourcing, and of the ALT3 hook, to make sure someone new thinks it should be approved. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:24, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Comment - I have done some editing to reduce the dependance on the major ref, but I agree that at the moment it is too biased to one source Victuallers (talk) 17:14, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

It's not biased, it uses a speciality book. Mat ty.007 17:23, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Sorry...if the word offends. I didnt mean to imply that it was biased by that book, but to that book. Please remove that bit if it stops you understanding the core of my opinion. I am sure this is a "specialist book", but its not the only one. I still believe that wiki articles should avoid using one source too much. Some work has been done and I have done a bit too. Victuallers (talk) 17:34, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

I find it odd then that you added an additional cite to the same book in the article. Also, there are not many reliable sources for obscure wine grape varieties (though there is an abundance of unreliable blog sources). It would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater to devalue the use of the most authoritative and reliable source available on the subject just because....it is the most authoritative and reliable source available on the subject and there are not more authoritative and reliable sources available on the topic. That would introduce a WP:SYSTEMATICBIAS towards excluding under-represented and more obscure topics on Wikipedia. Agne ^Cheese/^Wine 17:48, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Also, may I suggest an Alt? Agne ^Cheese/^Wine 17:56, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Alt 4: ... that the Prié blanc wine grape, grown in the shadow of Mont Blanc (pictured}, is planted in some of the highest-elevation vineyards in continental Europe?

The ALT4 hook, which I slightly reworded, is interesting and is amply supported by the article and cited sources. AGF on the copyvio/plagiarism topic. I found plenty of online information about this grape, particularly under the wine name Blanc de Morgex, but as Agne notes, most of the online sources aren't WP:RS. However, I'm puzzled that this article doesn't cite the "Wine for Dummies" source cited in the lead section of Valle d'Aosta DOC.

If the hook is used without an image, I suggest the following wording:

Alt 4A: ... that the Prié blanc wine grape is produced in some of the highest-elevation vineyards in continental Europe? --Orlady (talk) 04:51, 25 January 2014 (UTC)