Template:Did you know nominations/Peter Merseburger
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 07:06, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
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Peter Merseburger
Peter Merseburger in 2004
- ... that Peter Merseburger (pictured), known for controversial political themes on television in the 1960s, wrote in four years a biography of Rudolf Augstein based on correspondence and interviews? Source: several
- ALT1: ... that Peter Merseburger (pictured), who was a correspondent of the ARD in Washington, D.C. and London, enlightened his audience in West and East Germany with facts about everyday life from East Berlin? Source: several
- Reviewed: Externalization (migration)
- Comment: There's just too much we could say, also using the other pic with Willy Brandt. Help?
Created by Gerda Arendt (talk) and Grimes2 (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 10:45, 19 February 2022 (UTC).
This is more of a comment than a review, but I have some reservations about the first hook. Firstly, I'm uncomfortable with him being called "controversial" in the hook (even if it's accurate) given that he's a recently-deceased person, in which case WP:BLP still applies to some extent. Secondly, the hook doesn't have international appeal since the hook gives no background on Augstein and it doesn't sound very interesting to people who don't know him (indeed, I hadn't heard about him before reading the hook, although looking it up it appears that he founded the well-known German magazine Der Spiegel, which I have heard of). It may be a good idea for ALT0 to be revised to remove the "controversial political themes" part and simply focus on the writing-the-biography part, while mentioning that Augstein was the founder of Der Spiegel, which is probably more well-known internationally or at least in Europe (I've suggest a possible wording below this comment). In any case, I think ALT1 is a somewhat better and more interesting hook since it has that historical angle to it. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 06:51, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
- ALT2
... that it took over four years for Peter Merseburger (pictured) to write a biography of Der Spiegel founder Rudolf Augstein?- Thank you for thinking about it. I sort of waited for this comment, and created the article about Panorama, so we can defer the controversial part (controversial in an eye-opening positive way) to a hook to come. I thought about mentioning the Alice Schwarzer controversy (one of many, showing his firm stance), but then thought that it should not be the only thing we mention. But it sure is the thing he is known for: being on the side of the student revolt on public television. (Just look at how much room de:Panorama (Magazin) devotes to the case (and other controversies in the series before and after him), and it's also mentioned in most obits.) I dropped the idea because he spent the last years of his life writing biographies, so thought he'd rather want to be known for that. Of the five people he covered in a biography (Schumacher, Brandt, Augstein, Heuss and himself), I chose Augstein for several reasons: 1) A. was most closely connected to M., 2) A. is the least-known of the subjects so should be the most interesting (imho, in a section that expects "no" to the question did you know?), 3) M. was awarded a prize for this specific bio, 4) the article covers his method of writing for that bio because we have a good source, 5) M. had the privilege to look at the correspondence (first journalist ever) which singles him out. - I struck ALT1 because the only thing we mention about a multi-faceted person there is that he was seemingly a slow writer. Der Spiegel: did you see how often it's linked as a reference on Wikipedia? Yes, people may mot know Augstein, but there's a link to find out. So, trying to please:
- ALT0a: ... that Peter Merseburger (pictured) wrote in four years a biography of Rudolf Augstein, the founder of Der Spiegel, based on correspondence and interviews? - The offer stands that we could do Willy Brandt instead, but I explained why I'd rather say the more unusual. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:33, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
- ALT2
- I think my main issue with ALT0a is that I feel the "based on correspondence and interviews" part is redundant given that many biographies about people who were still alive when the biography was written tend to be based on just those things, Augstein's case isn't unusual. For me what stood out was how Augstein was the founder of a well-known magazine, hence why I thought the focus should have been on that instead. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:17, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
- I couldn't fit the "was the first journalist permitted access to the correspondence" bit - which shows the trust in him - into the limited character. Could you? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:53, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
- I think it would be better to just drop the correspondence idea. It's not central to the main hook fact. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:00, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
- I'll think but have three articles with a deadline today. Just saying it took him four years still places him in the slow workers corner, so won't do. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:20, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
- I think a version of ALT0a which deletes the "based on correspondence and interviews" phrase but is otherwise identical would be a decent hook. The important hook fact here is that he interviewed the founder of one of Europe's most famous magazines, so the focus should be on that. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:32, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
- It would be a decent hook, but doesn't show that this was a fascinating multi-faceted personality. What about ALT1, btw?
- I think a version of ALT0a which deletes the "based on correspondence and interviews" phrase but is otherwise identical would be a decent hook. The important hook fact here is that he interviewed the founder of one of Europe's most famous magazines, so the focus should be on that. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:32, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
- I'll think but have three articles with a deadline today. Just saying it took him four years still places him in the slow workers corner, so won't do. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:20, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
- I think it would be better to just drop the correspondence idea. It's not central to the main hook fact. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:00, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
- I couldn't fit the "was the first journalist permitted access to the correspondence" bit - which shows the trust in him - into the limited character. Could you? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:53, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
- I think my main issue with ALT0a is that I feel the "based on correspondence and interviews" part is redundant given that many biographies about people who were still alive when the biography was written tend to be based on just those things, Augstein's case isn't unusual. For me what stood out was how Augstein was the founder of a well-known magazine, hence why I thought the focus should have been on that instead. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:17, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
Brandt (left) and Merseburger in 1969
- ALT2: ... that after a career as political journalist, Peter Merseburger wrote biographies of people he had met such as Rudolf Augstein, founder of Der Spiegel, and chancellor Willy Brandt (pictured)?
- ALT2 is a good hook! But is there a reason why it's Brandt that's pictured and not Merseburger himself? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:39, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
- They are both pictured, but where place the thingy? The image illustrates his "political journalist" and "he had met" but how put it there when Brandt has not even been mentioned at that point? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:48, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
- I mean Merseburger is the subject so shouldn't the pictured be after him? There's probably a better way to write the "pictured" part here. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:42, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
- The key is that both are pictured. Could we say that after Brandt? If we place it only aafter M., people - used to reading images left to right - might be confused, recognizing Brandt instead. Isn't the image caption clear enough? We even discussed dropping the "pictured" when redundant. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:35, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
- No reply?
- ALT2a: ... that after a career as political journalist, Peter Merseburger wrote biographies of people he had met such as chancellor Willy Brandt (both pictured), and Rudolf Augstein, founder of Der Spiegel? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:46, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
- I mean Merseburger is the subject so shouldn't the pictured be after him? There's probably a better way to write the "pictured" part here. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:42, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
- They are both pictured, but where place the thingy? The image illustrates his "political journalist" and "he had met" but how put it there when Brandt has not even been mentioned at that point? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:48, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
- Apologies for the late reply, but I think ALT2a may need to be revised slightly. I don't really think the mention of "people he had met such as" is necessary here. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:40, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
- While it's not "needed" - what is ever needed - I think it adds a personal touch, and may even be needed if the pic is not taken. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:03, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
- Fair enough. For what it's worth the article meets DYK requirements and a QPQ has been done. The hook facts are cited inline and I am assuming good faith for the German sources. I think as a compromise, you can propose a version without the "people he had met such as" wording, then let the promoter choose which one to pick. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:40, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
- Narutolovehinata5, the prep builders take such liberties without my help ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:49, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
- Noted. Just propose an alt without the words I mentioned and this nomination will be approved. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 08:51, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
- ALT2b: ... that after a career as political journalist, Peter Merseburger wrote biographies, including of chancellor Willy Brandt (both pictured), and Rudolf Augstein, founder of Der Spiegel?
- but I believe that the personal connection is what makes these biographies different. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:24, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
- Noted. Just propose an alt without the words I mentioned and this nomination will be approved. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 08:51, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
- Narutolovehinata5, the prep builders take such liberties without my help ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:49, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
- Fair enough. For what it's worth the article meets DYK requirements and a QPQ has been done. The hook facts are cited inline and I am assuming good faith for the German sources. I think as a compromise, you can propose a version without the "people he had met such as" wording, then let the promoter choose which one to pick. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:40, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
- While it's not "needed" - what is ever needed - I think it adds a personal touch, and may even be needed if the pic is not taken. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:03, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
- Apologies for the late reply, but I think ALT2a may need to be revised slightly. I don't really think the mention of "people he had met such as" is necessary here. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:40, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
Thank you. ALT2a and ALT2b are approved, with the final choice being left to the promoter. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:40, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
ALT2b to T:DYK/P1 without image