Template:Did you know nominations/Peter Hamm

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 13:22, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Peter Hamm

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Peter Hamm in 2017

• ... that Peter Hamm (pictured), whose first poems were printed when he was age 17, met authors such as Sarah Kirsch and Paul Celan to learn how to write? Source: [1]

• Reviewed: Eastern Parkway
• Comment: left school at age 14, broke up apprenticeship ... - and became one of the most respected literary critics, - better wording welcome

Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 08:42, 28 July 2019 (UTC).

User:The Rambling Man is welcome to review. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:43, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

• Thanks for the invitation Gerda. As far as the article criteria are concerned, I see no issues. Nominated on the day it was created, long enough, meets policy, generally meets MOS, and I can't see obvious copyvio so that's all good. Onto the hook... a few comments:
  1. "he was age 17" he could have been 16, the article only specifies a year when the poems were published, and that year he would have been 16 or 17.
  2. "met authors such as Sarah Kirsch and Paul Celan to learn how to write?" in the literal sense, he already knew how to "write". Moreover, he already knew how to "write poetry" (being a published poet before meeting these authors).
  3. The article only mentions Nelly Sachs by name as an author he corresponded with to improve his writing skills (ah, there it is, perhaps he "corresponded with authors such as Nelly Sachs to improve his writing skills?").
• So in summary, I'm fine with the article (although naturally I'll reserve the right to give it a copyedit) but the hook needs some work. I don't doubt that it might well be all accurate, but currently it's not matching precisely what's being said in the article and that's a fundamental DYK issue. Cheers. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 08:56, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for the review. I add the age 17 to the article (which is mentioned in the source, as a header even, and is on the less sensational side compared to 16.

ALT1: ... that Peter Hamm (pictured), whose first poems were printed when he was age 17, met authors such as Sarah Kirsch and Paul Celan to improve his writing skills? (vs. any studies at a university). - I don't know how to hint at that, trying:

ALT2: ... that Peter Hamm (pictured), whose first poems were printed when he was age 17, never studied at a university, but met authors such as Sarah Kirsch and Paul Celan to improve his writing skills?

What do you think of using the icon for a neutral "questions"? (I understand the other as "leaning towards no", reading "more work" as meaning "considerably more work to an extent that one might hesitate to undertake it", but may be wrong.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:00, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Sure, I'm not sure it makes much difference which icon I picked, but hey, next time I'll pick the other one. I prefer ALT 2 I think but "did not study at university, but..." in preference to your proposed wording, a little bit more natural sounding to my English ears... The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 12:33, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Always grateful for help with English:

ALT3: ... that Peter Hamm (pictured), whose first poems were printed when he was age 17, did not study at university, but met authors such as Sarah Kirsch and Paul Celan to improve his writing skills?

I often (have to) explain that it doesn't really make a difference if the tick is green or blue, and I I choose blue whenever I need to accept anything - not just the hook - AGF. Thanks for explaining. Please strike all hooks you don't support, instead of thinking the promoter will read prose about a preference. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:43, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Now, being ultra-picky, the article doesn't 100% back that claim up literally, it mentions Kirsch and Celan in a sentence about "meeting" them, and then mentions not studying but communicating with "with [unnamed] authors" other than Nelly Sachs. Do you see what I'm getting at? I'm sure ref [1] covers all this, but the article just needs a little bit of work to make sure the hook is mentioned directly in the article. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 15:51, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

I'll look, but rehearsal first, Vespers ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:29, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

The ref doesn't cover exactly this. It says that he learned with people, not at university. ("Peter Hamm hat die Literatur anstatt an Universitäten von früh an bei den Dichter*innen und Schriftsteller*innen selber studiert, bei Ingeborg Bachmann, Ilse Aichinger oder Nelly Sachs, mit der er einen Briefwechsel führte.") About Kirsch and Celan, it says that he travelled to meet them. It further says that this special education resulted in him being interested in people rather than academics ("Diese besondere Ausbildung brachte einen Geist hervor, dem die Menschen und ihr Schreiben immer wichtiger waren als alles Akademische. Ihm kam es in Poesie und Prosa auf existenzielle Beweggründe an und auf ein präzises hellhöriges Nachempfinden. Theorien, Methoden oder Konzepte waren nicht seine Sache." translated as "This special education produced a spirit to which people and their writing were always more important than anything academic. In poetry and prose, he was interested in existential motives and a precise, clairaudient understanding. Theories, methods or concepts were not his thing.") What can we take of it? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:14, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Then we stick with the source directly and what is in the article, i.e. you can pick a hook from (a) he met with Kirsch/Celan, or (b) he communicated with Sachs to improve his writing. I'm still not seeing anywhere which says he met with Kirsch/Celan to improve his writing. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 08:18, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

I will need help with wording. The unusual thing is that he - a school drop-out met these giants of literature. We could say so without any intention about his own writing. Amazing that they received him, btw. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:45, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

ALT3: ... that the author, editor and literary critic Peter Hamm (pictured), who had his first poems printed at age 17, did not study at university, but met authors such as Sarah Kirsch and Paul Celan?

I'd like to say he made collections of poetry by European young authors, ut we have only 200 chars. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:45, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

I know this is a little tortuous for which I apologise, but meeting those authors (for me) is a little meh. If, however, you remain convinced that others will be impressed (personally, I've never heard of Kirsch nor Celan) then I would defer. However, ALT3 is still a little clunky, he didn't meet the authors instead of going to university, but he was guided/inspired/? by having met them... the other thing to consider is that he was already a published poet at the age of 17, and yet not going to university and meeting these individuals has no obvious consequence in the hook at all... The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 11:01, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

If you haven't met Celan, please do so (Todesfuge). - How about the first half of the hook for those who don't know much, and the rest for those who will be highly impressed by that name. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:10, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Problem is there's still no obvious link or clear need for our hook readers to link "not going to university" with "meeting authors".... The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 12:17, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Isn't DYK for finding out what something means? "met" is aomehow too weak a word for that boy travelling from Germany to France ... - not a per-chance-meeting.

ALT4: ... that the author, editor and literary critic Peter Hamm (pictured), who had his first poems printed at age 17, did not study at university, but pursued meeting authors, such as Paul Celan in Paris?

ALT5: ... that the author, editor and literary critic Peter Hamm (pictured), who had his first poems printed at age 17, did not study at university, but pursued contact with authors such as Paul Celan and Nelly Sachs. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:39, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Well no, DYK is for writing something interesting that will attract more than a handful of people (hence "interesting to a broad audience") so a priori knowledge (e.g. prominence of Celan/Sachs et al) detracts from that goal. However, according to the article he didn't "pursue meeting" or "pursue contact", he actually did meet them, right? I guess the point we're trying to get across is that he sought to improve his skill by meeting with other poets rather than pursuing a university career? The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:13, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Yes, and I said a while ago that I may need help wording that. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:25, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

• ALT6: ... that the author, editor and literary critic Peter Hamm (pictured), whose first poems were printed at age 17, favoured meeting authors such as Paul Celan over academic pursuits? The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 10:02, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for trying, - now I'm the critic: that tells me just that he liked meeting a great person better than studies. No surprise. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:27, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

• ALT7: ... that the author, editor and literary critic Peter Hamm (pictured), whose first poems were printed at age 17, favoured inspiration from authors such as Paul Celan over formal education? (as long as the source can substantiate this?) The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 10:33, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

I seem to be just as picky: it still reads as if he only "favoured", meaning "doing one thing with more enthusiasm than the other", - only, he didn't do the other. He didn't even finish an apprenticeship. One more try please, then I'll come up with somehing totally different ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:09, 14 August 2019 (UTC

• ALT8: ... that the author, editor and literary critic Peter Hamm (pictured), whose first poems were printed at age 17, drew inspiration from meeting authors such as Paul Celan over formal education? The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 12:52, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

I like that, thanks you so much! Now you will probably best use the icon for new reviewer needed, and strike all hooks that should not be it, - likely all others. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:29, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

As you like, and as you know, this will be goodbye from me on this review. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 15:01, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

• It seems the article and source suggests he did more than "drew inspiration", but used direct learning from authors as a substitute for university. A few drive-by hook suggestions:
  • ALT9A: ... that instead of attending university, author, editor and literary critic Peter Hamm (pictured), whose first poems were printed at age 17, learned directly from authors such as Paul Celan and Sarah Kirsch?
  • ALT9B: ... that instead of attending university, author, editor and literary critic Peter Hamm (pictured), whose first poems were printed at age 17, studied literature by corresponding and meeting with Paul Celan, Sarah Kirsch, and other authors?
  • ALT9C: ... that instead of enrolling in university, author, editor and literary critic Peter Hamm (pictured), whose first poems were printed at age 17, studied literature by corresponding and meeting with Paul Celan, Sarah Kirsch, and other authors?
  • ALT9D: ... that instead of studying literature at university, author, editor and literary critic Peter Hamm (pictured), whose first poems were printed at age 17, studied by corresponding and meeting with Paul Celan, Sarah Kirsch, and other authors? – Levivich 18:26, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for offering, but I wouldn't stress it because he simply could not enroll at university, givien his unseccessful school career. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:51, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

How about:

• ALT10a: ... that, despite leaving school aged 14, author and literary critic Peter Hamm had his first poem published aged 17?
• ALT10b: ... that, despite leaving school aged 14, Peter Hamm became a successful writer, literary critic and jury member for literary prizes?

As far as I can see, the article and the sources say he visited Paul Celan and Sarah Kirsch, they don't say he studied with them. The ones he corresponded with were Ingeborg Bachmann, Ilse Aichinger and Nelly Sachs. The hook could mention them, but I think saying that an author and critic left school at 14 might interest more people, perhaps. RebeccaGreen (talk) 14:13, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

* @Gerda Arendt: Sorry, I should have pinged you before. It seems this article is still needing an agreed hook - I'm not sure if my suggestions are any use. RebeccaGreen (talk) 20:22, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Thank you, acceptable. Did you get my ping for the Vespers. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:42, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

ALT10a and ALT10b both sound good, with a slight preference for 10b. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 00:17, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

• Narutolovehinata5, was that supposed to be a tick-level approval, or just a comment? It would be helpful to finish the review, since you haven't participated previously. BlueMoonset (talk) 05:27, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

It was only intended to be a comment and I initially did not intend to give a tick as I thought there would be another editor reviewing this. With that said, since there has been request to choose a hook, I would say that I am now approving both ALT10a and ALT10b (assuming good faith on the German sources). The previous hooks were far too long unfortunately. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 06:50, 1 September 2019 (UTC)