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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 22:46, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Peng Shilu

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Peng Shilu in 2004
Peng Shilu in 2004
  • ... that Peng Shilu is known as the "father of China's nuclear submarines" while Huang Xuhua was then one of his three deputies, and he was jailed at 8 years old for being the son of someone?
    • ALT1: ... that Peng Shilu is known as the "father of China's nuclear submarines" while Huang Xuhua was then one of his three deputies, and Peng was jailed at the age of 8 for being the son of someone? Source: (a) pages 322–323 of Historical Dictionary of Science and Technology in Modern China. Rowman & Littlefield Publishers. 2015. ISBN 978-0-8108-7855-6., (b) pages 55-79 of "China's Future Nuclear Submarine Force — Insights from Chinese Writings" (PDF). Naval War College Review. 60 (1). Winter 2007. ISSN 0028-1484., (c) "The achievements of CNNC during the year 2017". www.china5e.com (in Chinese).
  • Reviewed: exempt from QPQ

Created by Lvhis (talk). Self-nominated at 19:46, 8 November 2018 (UTC).

  • I am not sure I understand the hook - Peng Shilu, then mentions Huang Xuhua and I'm not sure which of them was jailed? MPJ-DK (talk) 01:13, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
Thank you MPJ-DK for your review. I revised the hook. Please check it to see if it is okay now, thanks. Lvhis (talk) 19:01, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
Hi there, sorry for the delay. I'm still confused why the hook mentions Huang Xuhua at all? it's just a passing mention in the article? MPJ-DK (talk) 01:57, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
Thank you for your comment or question. Both Peng Shilu and Huang Xuhua have been called the "father of China's nuclear submarines", and it has been questioned who of them has more credit for this honorary name. Recently, for instance, a comment was published on media, titled "中国核潜艇没有"之父", 就算有也不应是黄旭华" (In English it is meant "There is no ′father′ of China's nuclear submarines, and even if there is, it should not be Huang Xuhua"). The author is familiar with the building history of China's first generation of nuclear submarines and reviewed the history. Therefore, in this hook, it is worth mentioning Huang Xuhua when Peng Shilu is mentioned "known as the father of China's nuclear submarines", and this may be an interesting or attractive point in terms of DYK. Lvhis (talk) 00:48, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
  • Coming here to just add that the hook has issues with phrasing (it makes no sense without some effort), and has two different facts in it. A DYK hook isn't supposed to be a sentence justifying why something is notable, this isn't the only one to do that, but we can shorten this into a fun fact easier than others. There's also the fact that to a lot the English wikipedia, Chinese submarines don't mean much, so it probably wouldn't be an attractive DYK without establishing the debate you've had to explain. To fix these issues, I suggest the alt hook:
ALT2: ... that Chinese history debates whether the "father of China's nuclear submarines" is Peng Shilu or a man who was one of his deputies at the time, Huang Xuhua?
Kingsif (talk) 20:31, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
  • ALT2 is a really good hook. Unfortunately it's not in the article, nor is the term "Father of CHina's nuclear submarines" in the main article, only in the lead. Easy enough to address with a small addition to the article I think. MPJ-DK (talk) 22:25, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
  • @Kingsif: and @MPJ-DK: Thank both of you for your suggestions. If it is better to have only one fact for a DYK, I prefer having one like this:"... that Peng Shilu, the "father of China's nuclear submarines", was jailed at the age of 8 for being the son of someone?" Here the main subject is Peng Shilu, and Huang Xuhua is no longer mentioned any more, and the article can be as it is now. I want this one as ALT2. The one both of you suggested and liked, with the subject "(debated) Chinese history", can be ALT3, and a A small addition needs to be added to the article for ALT2 as MPJ-DK suggested. I list the a new alt hooks as a draft as follows:
ALT3: ... that Peng Shilu, the "father of China's nuclear submarines", was jailed at the age of 8 for being the son of someone?
Is this way okay? Lvhis (talk) 21:37, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
@Lvhis: That's not how ALT hooks work. Only one hook is chosen, and ALT hooks are given a number in the order they are proposed so that they can be identified. Now, I removed the "jailed for being the son of someone" because it doesn't make sense. So, I still vote ALT2 (I have corrected yours to ALT3). Kingsif (talk) 21:53, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
General: Article is new enough and long enough

Policy compliance:

Hook eligibility:

  • Cited: Yes
  • Interesting: Yes
  • Other problems: Yes
Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
QPQ: Done.

Overall: Alt3 is approved, it's cited and in the article. MPJ-DK (talk) 22:33, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

  • Hi, I came by to promote this, but am totally confused by this discussion. @MPJ-DK:, the previous reviewer, Kingsif, said that "son of someone" is unacceptable hook wording, and I agree. Kingsif prefers ALT2, which would need a second reviewer. Now I see that ALT2 has been crossed out, and you are accepting ALT3. Could you explain what going on here please? Yoninah (talk) 18:05, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

Alright so a few points

  • I am the original reviewer and did not have a problem with the "son of" phrasing, just the juxtaposing of two independed facts
  • Kingsif wrote ALT2, which is not reflected in the article, thus a no
  • alt3 is in the article, souced etc. And thus approved. And it is technically right, he was jailed simply because who his father was. MPJ-DK (talk) 20:29, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
  • MPJ-DK OK. But "son of someone" is not encyclopedic enough for the main page. Should we say:
  • ALT3a: ... that Peng Shilu, the "father of China's nuclear submarines", was jailed at the age of 8 for being his father's son? -- although there are too many "fathers" there. Yoninah (talk) 21:31, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
  • Yoninah I don't think it's "unencylopedic", myself, so a couple of suggestions for a rephrasing of the hook. MPJ-DK (talk) 02:52, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
  • was jailed at the age of 8 for being born?
  • was jailed at the age of 8 due to his genetics?
  • was jailed at the age of 8 for having the wrong parents?
  • @Yoninah: May I be allowed to input my suggestion? I borrow a phrasing from MPJ-DK and made it as follows:
  • was jailed at the age of 8 simply because who one of his parents was?
If I am not allowed at this stage, please forget this. Lvhis (talk) 20:26, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
  • Sorry, I think all these options are too offbeat and slang-y. You don't have the wrong parents, you have parents. @Lvhis: your last suggestion doesn't read smoothly.
  • I took a look at the article and did some copyediting to improve the English grammar. I would like to note that the only thing that needs a citation in the lead are the two descriptions of him as "father of China's nuclear submarines" and the "father of China's naval nuclear propulsion". All the other citations should be placed in the main text. Thank you, Yoninah (talk) 21:53, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
  • Please also add a citation for his birthdate. Yoninah (talk) 21:56, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
  • A citation for his birthdate was added. And citations for the two descriptions in the lead were also added from existed ones. Not sure if this adding was redundant. He still is an academician of CAE now, so I changed "was" into "is". Thanks. Lvhis (talk) 01:26, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
  • was jailed at the age of 8 for no other reason than being born? MPJ-DK (talk) 00:55, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
  • Sorry, this hook direction is going nowhere IMO. Yoninah (talk) 20:35, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
  • All of them are correct, factual and cited. So basically you just don't care for the hook, seems that the phrasing is immaterial. MPJ-DK (talk) 04:22, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
  • That is not true. I suggested ALT3a along those lines. I am concerned that the others don't read encyclopedically. I'll ask for further feedback at WT:DYK. Yoninah (talk) 18:39, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
... that Peng Shilu, the "father of China's nuclear submarines", was jailed at the age of 8 for being a son of Peng Pai, a critic of the Kuomintang government?
I am aware that this wording may not be the best, but it's a suggestion here on how to fix that "father's son" wording while at the same time showing the importance of his father. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:30, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
I think that some of my issues, and possibly Yoninah's, with the phrasing is that it just reads awkwardly, which might be because the hook tries to focus on his father too much. You could just say "...was jailed at the age of 8 because he was related to government detractors?" This or similar phrasing is not overly complex or confusing by trying to simplify excess information. Kingsif (talk) 02:31, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
I agree. I think it's better if we could just focus on one fact instead of presenting multiple facts at once. If we are going to mention the jailing part, I would go with Kingsif's suggestion. Alex Shih (talk) 06:58, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
By adopting the article text, can we just say: ... that Peng Shilu, "father of China’s nuclear submarines", was jailed at 8 as the son of a Chinese communist revolutionary?
or this: ... that Peng Pai’s son, Peng Shilu, known as the "father of China’s nuclear submarines", was jailed at 8? VincentLUFan (talk) (Kenton!) 16:55, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, Vincent60030 I like that last one a lot. Yoninah (talk) 17:41, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
No problemo. Time for promotionzzzzzzzzzzzz VincentLUFan (talk) (Kenton!) 17:46, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
  • @Vincent60030: We should wait for the page creator and original reviewer to weigh in. Yoninah (talk) 17:49, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
  • I'm good with this. MPJ-DK (talk) 21:02, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
  • I agree with this too. My thought on initial hook was to leave some suspense ion to attract readers by not mentioning his father's name directily. Anyway, no matter who his father was, it was extremely ridiculous to jail an 8 years old boy. Now I list the new alt hook, suggested by Vincent60030 and agreed by reviewers MPJ-DK and Yoninah, as follows:
ALT3b: ... that Peng Pai’s son, Peng Shilu, known as the "father of China’s nuclear submarines", was jailed at 8?
Hope this DYK be promoted timely. Thanks a lot! Lvhis (talk) 01:47, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
I agree that skipping the father's name makes it hookier. I suggest something more concise, such as:
  • ALT3c: ... that Peng Shilu, the "father of China's nuclear submarines," was jailed at age 8?
  • ALT3d: ... that nuclear submarine designer Peng Shilu was jailed at age 8?
  • ALT3e: ... that Peng Shilu was jailed at age 8?
  • ALT3f: ... that Peng Shilu was jailed at age 8 as the son of a dissident?
  • ALT3g: ... that Peng Shilu was jailed at age 8 and went on to become the "father of China’s nuclear submarines"?
Commenting after seeing the request for input at WT:DYK. EdChem (talk) 05:26, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
Comment: ALT3e doesn't really describe anything. So would opt out of that. VincentLUFan (talk) (Kenton!) 06:13, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
I find 3e particularly hooky as it makes me wonder why an 8 year old would be sent to jail. It's implication is negative, though, since he could have been jailed for legitimate reasons, so on reflection, I'd say "... that Peng Shilu was wrongly jailed at age 8?" In any case, mine are just suggestions that others may or may not like or choose.  :) EdChem (talk) 07:21, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
Good point of yours. But the nominator has the intention of mentioning Peng Shilu's father Peng Pai which is also quite notable in this case. And he wasnt wrongly jailed. VincentLUFan (talk) (Kenton!) 07:29, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
Perhaps "unfairly" or "unjustly" jailed? Given the nominator's preference, though, perhaps: EdChem (talk) 09:30, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
  • ALT3h: ... that Peng Shilu, jailed at age 8 as a dissident's son, went on to become the "father of China’s nuclear submarines"?
  • I feel that none of the above (ALT3c through ALT3h) is better than ALT3b, sorry. And ALT3b has got a most consent so far. Lvhis (talk) 20:18, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
  • @Lvhis: the point of a hook is not to tell the whole story, but to dangle a "hook" in front of the reader so he'll bite. I agree with EdChem that ALT3c is more concise because it doesn't mention the father's name, which most of our readers won't know anyway. Why was the "father of China's nuclear submarines" jailed as a child? That will draw in pageviews. Please reconsider ALT3c so we can promote this already. Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 22:04, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
  • @Yoninah: Thanks for your explanation. I'm persuaded. Please move this DYK forward using ALT3c. I owe a "Thanks" to EdChem for his considering my initial preference though I gave it up when ALT3b came up. Lvhis (talk) 22:30, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
  • Great. I am restoring the tick for ALT3c per MPJ-DK's review (using an AGF tick because the source for his being jailed at age 8 is in Chinese), since it is just a shorter version of ALT3. The approved alt is:
  • ALT3c: ... that Peng Shilu, the "father of China's nuclear submarines," was jailed at age 8? Yoninah (talk) 22:44, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
  • I can verify with a green tick since I can read Mandarin. VincentLUFan (talk) (Kenton!) 06:45, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
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