Template:Did you know nominations/Patricia Bowman
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:26, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
| DYK toolbox |
|---|
Patricia Bowman
- ... that critic Jack Anderson described Patricia Bowman as "the first American ballerina to win critical acclaim and wide popularity as a classical and a musical-theater dancer? Source: Jack Anderson (April 27, 1999). "Patricia Bowman, a Ballerina Who Linked Two Eras of Dance". The New York Times.
Created by 4meter4 (talk). Self-nominated at 03:04, 21 April 2021 (UTC).
The article is new enough, long enough, referenced, neutral and no copyvio obvious. AFT offline references. The hook is referenced and interesting. QPQ done. However, I had edited a number of ballet articles and I do have a few notes. The American Ballet Theatre was originally known simply as Ballet Theatre until it was renamed in the 1950s. Also, in my opinion, there is no need to mention the names of composers when talking a about ballets as old as Swan Lake or Giselle. Corachow (talk) 19:47, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
- Corachow The New York Times obit on Bowman used the verbiage American Ballet Theatre when speaking about that period of her life. While I understand it may not have been called that at the time that she was involved, current readers probably wouldn't make the connection if we were to use the old name in the article. I'll put in a parenthetical note that it was called Ballet Theatre at that time. WP:WikiProject Classical Music and WP:WikiProject Opera (of which I am an active member) both endorse using composer names when writing about classic works in articles about musicians. I would assume ballet dancers would be no different. Remember not all readers may be familiar with even well known ballets like Swan Lake. I prefer to err on the side of clarity.4meter4 (talk) 20:03, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
- Unfortunately there are virtually no guidelines from WikiProject Dance and WikiProject Ballet. While I'm not familiar with the guidelines with classical music, I feel like when the article is about a ballet dancer, mentioning a ballet is more about the choreographer than the composer. There are many productions of Swan Lake and Giselle by different stagers, with different choreographies in the lesser known sections. Some dancers might had been in a dozen different productions of the same ballet, and it is not rare for ballet companies also switch productions, so it is, at least from my observation, common to not mention the composer and/or choreographer at all. Corachow (talk) 20:32, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
- I absolutely agree the choreographer is important, but the references did not mention the choreographer. It’s really a small point, and one of editorial opinion to include the composers. In the absence of written guidelines from WikiProject ballet, I am going to follow what I know to do from the classical music related Wikiprojects. I don’t think it should be a big enough issue to hold up a DYK review as it’s factually accurate and supported by the references.4meter4 (talk) 20:54, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
I disagree but what can I say. With so few active WikiProject Ballet members, I don't expect a full guideline in the near future. Corachow (talk) 21:19, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
- While quotes are allowed, the entire substance of this hook is a quotation, which falls afoul of COPYVIO. Please propose something with original words. Kingsif (talk) 11:02, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
- It's a direct attributed quote, how is this a copyright violation under policy? Other hooks have been promoted which have been quotations.4meter4 (talk) 16:24, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
- BlueMoonset is this an accurate interpretation of policy?4meter4 (talk) 18:10, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
- 4meter4, Kingsif, this is a new one on me. We've run longer quotes than this before without comment, though not frequently. Pinging Nikkimaria, to see whether she thinks there is a copyvio issue in an 18-word quote in a 26-word hook. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:26, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
- Typically the factor that matters is not how long the quote is relative to the hook, but how long the quote is relative to the original work. Unfortunately I don't have access to the source article - could someone who does verify its wordcount? (To my knowledge there is no rule forbidding non-free text appearing on the Main Page, unlike the rule regarding images; if someone knows otherwise please say so). Nikkimaria (talk) 00:40, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
- Nikkimaria There are 2827 characters and 477 words in the article.4meter4 (talk) 05:37, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks. In that case, assuming there's no non-free-text-on-MP rule that I don't know about, I wouldn't anticipate that being problematic. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:52, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
- Nikkimaria There are 2827 characters and 477 words in the article.4meter4 (talk) 05:37, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
- Typically the factor that matters is not how long the quote is relative to the hook, but how long the quote is relative to the original work. Unfortunately I don't have access to the source article - could someone who does verify its wordcount? (To my knowledge there is no rule forbidding non-free text appearing on the Main Page, unlike the rule regarding images; if someone knows otherwise please say so). Nikkimaria (talk) 00:40, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
- 4meter4, Kingsif, this is a new one on me. We've run longer quotes than this before without comment, though not frequently. Pinging Nikkimaria, to see whether she thinks there is a copyvio issue in an 18-word quote in a 26-word hook. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:26, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
- BlueMoonset is this an accurate interpretation of policy?4meter4 (talk) 18:10, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
- It's a direct attributed quote, how is this a copyright violation under policy? Other hooks have been promoted which have been quotations.4meter4 (talk) 16:24, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
- I absolutely agree the choreographer is important, but the references did not mention the choreographer. It’s really a small point, and one of editorial opinion to include the composers. In the absence of written guidelines from WikiProject ballet, I am going to follow what I know to do from the classical music related Wikiprojects. I don’t think it should be a big enough issue to hold up a DYK review as it’s factually accurate and supported by the references.4meter4 (talk) 20:54, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
- Unfortunately there are virtually no guidelines from WikiProject Dance and WikiProject Ballet. While I'm not familiar with the guidelines with classical music, I feel like when the article is about a ballet dancer, mentioning a ballet is more about the choreographer than the composer. There are many productions of Swan Lake and Giselle by different stagers, with different choreographies in the lesser known sections. Some dancers might had been in a dozen different productions of the same ballet, and it is not rare for ballet companies also switch productions, so it is, at least from my observation, common to not mention the composer and/or choreographer at all. Corachow (talk) 20:32, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
- Corachow The New York Times obit on Bowman used the verbiage American Ballet Theatre when speaking about that period of her life. While I understand it may not have been called that at the time that she was involved, current readers probably wouldn't make the connection if we were to use the old name in the article. I'll put in a parenthetical note that it was called Ballet Theatre at that time. WP:WikiProject Classical Music and WP:WikiProject Opera (of which I am an active member) both endorse using composer names when writing about classic works in articles about musicians. I would assume ballet dancers would be no different. Remember not all readers may be familiar with even well known ballets like Swan Lake. I prefer to err on the side of clarity.4meter4 (talk) 20:03, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
