Template:Did you know nominations/Otto Jochum
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Amkgp (talk) 20:14, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
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Otto Jochum
... that Otto Jochum, organist and later director of the Augsburg Conservatory, received a German national composition prize for a sacred oratorio in 1932, and composed Unser Lied: Deutschland! in 1938?Source: several
- Reviewed:
to come - Comment: help with a hook wanted for a man with many merits, but too many during the Nazi regime
- Reviewed:
Created by LouisAlain (talk) and Gerda Arendt (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 20:48, 24 November 2020 (UTC).
- Meets DYK requirements for newness and length.
As I understand it,Use of the translated wikitext from the German wiki article is counted as "new" content for DYK's newness/expansion purposes, and is not "text spun off from a pre-existing article". It is appropriately so annotated on the article's talk page. Re additional hook, in looking at Ref #3, maybe an intriguing Alt1 hook might refer somehow to the Hitlerjugend and his musical activities? (viz., "Otto Jochum ... und das NS-Regime und insbesondere die Reichsjugendführung, die der Hitlerjugend und Jochums musikpädagogischen Aktivitäten untergeordnet ist, werden kritisch gesehen.Führende Hitlerjugendbeamte sehen darin eine unerwünschte Alternative zu den staatlichen Jugendorganisationen und eineBedrohung für die nationalsozialistische Kontrolle über die jüngeren Generationen.") JGHowes talk 19:06, 25 November 2020 (UTC)- Thank you for looking closely. I'm a bit reluctant towards the family's foundation, vs. other sources (that I can't access) saying what he wrote for party celebrations. - Translated content is new, - see discussions in the archives. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:56, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
- Good for DYK,
except for QPQ. German sources support the Alt0 hook. Since additional hook suggestions were requested, here's one for Gerda's consideration: - ALT1:
... that Otto Jochum, German organist and music director, composed Ein Weihnachtssingen for Christmas during World War II, although he was a Nazi party member at the time?source: Stanford University JGHowes talk 23:47, 25 November 2020 (UTC)- Thank you for the suggestion, but he was more a choral man than organist, and more an educator than (late) a music director, the national importance is missing, and the Nazis were not against Christianity but false friends. It wasn't like church under Communist regime as in Poland or Hungary, so less of a contradiction. - I reviewed now Template:Did you know nominations/In Praise of Forgetting. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:13, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
Good to go. Another fine contribution by Gerda Arendt. JGHowes talk 15:11, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- Without LouisAlain, the translator, I'd still only know his famous brother. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:21, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
Hi, I came by to promote this, but the last clause just seems tacked on. Can we delete it? Yoninah (talk) 16:32, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- How else would you suggest to not remain silent about him serving the Nazis? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:42, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- ALT1:
... that while he was a member of the Nazi Party, choral director Otto Jochum composed pieces such as Vaterländische Hymne ("Patriotic Anthem") and Unser Lied: Deutschland! ("Our Song: Germany!")?Yoninah (talk) 22:17, 10 December 2020 (UTC)- Please no because he was a great and influential musician also before and after that period, - I don't want to reduce him to it. I'd rather have no DYK. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:32, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- ALT1:
- How else would you suggest to not remain silent about him serving the Nazis? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:42, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- Without LouisAlain, the translator, I'd still only know his famous brother. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:21, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- Gerda: I thought that's what you meant by
How else would you suggest to not remain silent about him serving the Nazis?
Yoninah (talk) 22:45, 10 December 2020 (UTC)- So it seems the best solution is to shorten the ALT0:
- ALT0a:
... that Otto Jochum, organist and later director of the Augsburg Conservatory, received a German national composition prize for a sacred oratorio in 1932?Yoninah (talk) 22:46, 10 December 2020 (UTC)- Well, I promised a dear person not to remain silent about the Nazi time. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:51, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- That's nice. How about removing the German title with no translation and writing:
- ALT0b:
... that Otto Jochum, organist and later director of the Augsburg Conservatory, received a German national composition prize for a sacred oratorio in 1932 and composed a folk anthem in 1938?Yoninah (talk) 22:55, 10 December 2020 (UTC)- No idea what a folk anthem is, but if other will know, fine. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:03, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- I see, it's the article's try to translate "volksdeutsche Hymne", - perhaps we could improve that. My translator comes up with national anthem which it is not. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:06, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- Gerda: I thought that's what you meant by
- Meets DYK requirements for newness and length.
Rather not. "anthem" is better for the German Hymne, national anthem = Nationalhymne. The English "hymn" seems rather to mean a church song. "Unser Lied: Deutschland!" (Our song: Germany!) seems clear enough to me. lied is understood even in Englisch, and I bet Deutschland will also be understood. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:34, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- Readers spend about one second scanning the DYK section on the main page. They are not going to work on translating your German. So do you want to add the translation?
- ALT0c:
... that Otto Jochum, organist and later director of the Augsburg Conservatory, received a German national composition prize for a sacred oratorio in 1932, and composed Unser Lied: Deutschland! ("Our Song: Germany!") in 1938?Yoninah (talk) 23:40, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- Drat, it's over 200 char. Can you just suggest something else? This hook makes it sound like he composed only two pieces in his whole career. Yoninah (talk) 23:41, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- I woke up thinking that "patriotic" might be the word. - I didn't mean to translate the title, but that readers would get enough without translation, - thought so for the original. How are things such as "volksdeutsch" or "völkisch" normally translated? Buidhe might know.
- ALT0c: ... that Otto Jochum, organist and later director of the Augsburg Conservatory, received a German national composition prize for a sacred oratorio in 1932, but also composed patriotic anthems under the Nazi regime? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:45, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
- Drat, it's over 200 char. Can you just suggest something else? This hook makes it sound like he composed only two pieces in his whole career. Yoninah (talk) 23:41, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- ALT0c: