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Template:Did you know nominations/Olim le Berlin

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Fuebaey (talk) 17:09, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

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Olim L'Berlin

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  • ... that photos of a pudding and a grocery bill under the title Olim L'Berlin caused a media uproar in Israel and elsewhere?

Created by Serten II (talk) and Yoninah (talk). Self nominated at 20:04, 11 October 2014 (UTC).

  • The article is new and long enough. I can not find the hook assertion in the text of the article, nor its citation.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:55, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
Thats the difference between fact and aspct I presume. International Media interest and debate in Israel is confirmed and being described, as in the english Spiegel article, the website starting with bill and photo e.g. by the Guardian. I did some rewording to allow for the hook. Serten (talk) 23:18, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
New review required to check article and hook. Fuebaey (talk) 13:56, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
  • The page is written in a rambling fashion and needs a copyedit to meet Wikipedia standards. Too many issues are being bandied about – the Milky upload, the cottage cheese and housing protests, Israeli emigration, Germany's Jewish population, Berlin safety – without being put in logical context for the reader. The lead does not summarize the scope of the article at all. I suggest starting off with a Background section describing Milky pudding, the cottage cheese and housing protests, and yerida, and then launching into the history of the Battle of the Milky. Narrow your scope as well; the last paragraph under Emigration taboo seems to go off on an entirely new tangent. Walk the reader through the discussion, as many readers will not be familiar with Israeli politics or commercialism. Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 11:58, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
I have to agree it's extremely difficult to understand what the page is getting at. EEng (talk) 14:17, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
That sort of (un)reasoning having nothing to do with the intention or regulation of DYK. I dont see that as valid reviewing or anything one has to react upon. Olim le berlia affects many aspects of German jewish life, the article cannot cover too much of them. Serten II (talk) 14:12, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Let me make the reasoning clear: if reasonably intelligent readers must struggle to understand what an article is talking about, then that article isn't ready to be linked from WP's main page. EEng (talk) 15:49, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

  • The page creator has done nothing to improve the page and my original review still stands. I reject this nomination. Yoninah (talk) 16:40, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
    • Yoninah, EEng I have worked on the page again. I think its different now and got some more structure. Regards and merry xmas. Serten II (talk) 08:16, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
Well, it is better, but there's still a ways to go. At the very least the lead needs to make clear why people were upset about this -- right now it doesn't say. EEng (talk) 14:48, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Sorry, it's still not clear what you're trying to say in the lead or the article. There is too much side commentary and not a straight line of thinking. Here is an attempt at a lead; is this the direction you're trying to take?

  • Olim le Berlin (Hebrew: עולים לברלין, lit. "Let's ascend to Berlin") is the name of a Facebook page that coined a snowclone in 2014. Comparing the high cost of living in Israel with the comparatively easier economic climate in Berlin, which has a sizable Jewish population, the Facebook page raised a storm of protest from Israeli government officials and reportedly incited several thousand Israelis to express a desire to emigrate.

  • The Facebook page based its comparison on the cost of grocery products in Israel and Germany, among them a dairy pudding product similar to the popular Israeli pudding known as Milky. In Israel the consequent media storm was called the "Battle of the Milky" (Hebrew: הקרב על המילקי). The Facebook page also prompted a discussion of yerida (emigration from Israel) through its use of the same rousing verb (olim) that Jews reserve for aliyah (immigration to Israel), a basic tenet of Zionism.

  • Yoninah (talk) 22:43, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
That's way, way better. EEng (talk) 23:31, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
Go fo it Serten II (talk) 00:49, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
OK, but I don't have time now. I will do a complete edit on the article in a day or two. Yoninah (talk) 01:16, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
  • I completed the rewrite, adding more sources, formatting all the references, and removing the close paraphrasing and journalistic speculation. I would appreciate a co-credit on this DYK nomination. Yoninah (talk) 23:06, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Thanks. I'd like to suggest this slightly revised alt hook:
  • ALT1: ... that photos of a grocery bill and a chocolate pudding on a Facebook page called Olim L'Berlin caused an uproar in Israel? Yoninah (talk) 23:22, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
  • ALT2: ... that a Facebook page showing photos of a chocolate pudding and a grocery receipt from a Berlin supermarket caused a furor in Israel? Yoninah (talk) 09:40, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
  • ALT3: ... that Facebook photos of chocolate pudding and a grocery receipt caused a furore in Israel? EEng (talk) 10:20, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
  • ALT4: ... that the "cheap and shabby-chic" of Germany's capital, attracting the type who made Tel Aviv cool, found its expression in Olim L'Berlin?
I would prefer a hook without advertising for Zuckerberg ;) Serten II (talk) 10:39, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Granted, but ALT4 seems obscure, not hooky, and you would have to add quotes for what you're lifting from the source. I like EEng's ALT3. I switched "furor" for "uproar", as "uproar" is used in the source. Yoninah (talk) 11:56, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
  • ALT5: ... that an Israeli living in the German capital caused a media uproar with Olim L'Berlin?
  • More spooky, rather simplified ;) Serten II (talk) 18:12, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
  • I don't think non-Jews will comprehend what Olim L'Berlin means, or even see the word "Berlin" in that foreign language. Also, as you can see from the page rewrite, it was more than a media uproar; it caused a political and social furor. I still prefer ALT3. You could change "Facebook photos" to "online photos", but I think that would dull the hook. Everyone will click on Facebook. Yoninah (talk) 19:21, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Full review needed of revised article and the many proposed hooks. I've modified the DYKmake and Created lines to reflect Serten's username change to Serten II. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:14, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
  • This article now seems satisfactory to me and is new enough and long enough. Going for ALT3 or ALT5 which are both hooky and have inline citations. The article is neutral and I detected no copyright/close paraphrasing issues. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:14, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
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