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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by PanydThe muffin is not subtle 04:47, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Not Afraid

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Created/expanded by Wikipedian Penguin (talk). Self nom at 20:03, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

  • I think this meets all the formal DYK criteria--long enough, expanded, images check out, neutral, etc. I have not checked whether the editor has done enough reviews. As far as the hook the first one is fine, I guess. But here's the thing. The hook is not very interesting, and the ALT hook is no better. But then, the article is not very interesting. It is an enormous amount of prose and references for a hit-song with a video clip. No doubt it will make a fine GA, but we don't advertise those on the first page.

    So, formally speaking, it passes. Content wise, with my apologies to the editor, I don't think this is a great advertisement for what Wikipedia has to offer. Drmies (talk) 02:22, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

  • So, I need to say yes or no. I am going to say no, and will ask for another DYK regular to have another look at it, to be fair. Drmies (talk) 02:24, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
    • Thank you for taking the time to review the article. I certainly accept the fact that it will not be interesting to some readers and I will try to work on that and I know that much of the content is nothing out of the ordinary. I would appreciate the second opinion prior to making any further comments then. This is my first DYK nomination so I am yet to properly understand the etiquettes. Thank you. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 02:41, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
  • It's not really about etiquette--here's a judgment call, and I am well aware that opinions can differ here, which is why I asked another editor to have a look. Thanks for your contribution, and may there be many more--whether this gets on the front page or not. Drmies (talk) 04:10, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
I have never seen a DYK thrown out because because it's "not interesting enough" and "a hit-song...don't advertise those on the front page." I'm confused how this can be a judgement call; is it long enough and conforming to all the standards? You say yes, it is. Does it carry an interesting hook? ...not really. Still, if the author and nominator can't find anything better, then there is no reason to throw it out on opinion. It sounds to me like you're discriminating against pop culture here, and you should see the size of the frown on my face right now :-/. ResMar 22:43, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
  • You haven't? Interesting. Surely there is more to DYK than just meeting the formal criteria. I don't really care about your frown, to be honest, and the idea that my judgment is "just" an opinion is a bit off-putting, especially if you can't even be bothered to look through the references, as you say below. You, apparently, don't have an opinion except for "it meets the criteria (but I won't check the references)". DYK should advertise the best of the new stuff we have to offer, remember? Drmies (talk) 15:04, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Oh, an early DYK of mine was Dahil Sa Iyo; I would never discredit songs on principle (I don't think I said I did). I just don't find this article and its hook very exciting, and I realize this is a judgment call (which is more than an "opinion")--which is why I asked for a second opinion, something that Mario may have missed in their rush to judgment. Gugur Bunga, for instance, while a bit short, is an interesting topic, and I think I am allowed to suggest that cultural relevance or broader meaning is a relevant criterion, and possibly more relevant than an excellently referenced section on sales numbers. And we have tons and tons of DYK nominations still waiting to be reviewed, so I don't think we'll have no more than four sets per week. But I will rest my case. I hope editors here can find an interesting hook and that the article gets lots of hits. Penguin, congrats on the GA status. Drmies (talk) 17:46, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
  • If I remember correctly, the consensus is to attempt to have objective criteria which can be fairly applied to all articles. Naturally, there are some subjective measures; article length for very general subjects, and the interest factor of hooks. For the interest factor, personally I attempt to help the nominator pick a good hook if the one selected is not acceptable. Some don't, which is fine. Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:15, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
Penguin, I think you should fish around a bit more and see if you can't draw out a more interesting hook. For instance, in File:Eminem Not Afraid video.JPG, how did they suspend him like that? ResMar 02:30, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Thank you for your comments Resident Mario. Unfortunately, no sources specifically give behind-the-scenes info on the flying effects, but my assumption is that chroma key was used. Crisco, that looks like a good suggestion and I am surprised to have not thought of that. It leaves readers wanting to read more on why and how. I like it's surprise factor and would like a final update for criteria satisfaction from the reviewer. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 18:35, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Support ALT 1 if nothing else comes up. AGF because I am not going to read through all those references. Passing admin can determine what to do if they feel like it, but I don't think there is a legitimate reason not to run. ResMar 02:53, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Why not get specific and stick a particular qualification in there about this comparison, something like "contains a flying scene which..." or something like that? The hook isn't too long yet, is it? Drmies (talk) 17:48, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Yes, but I think giving away too much ruins the surprise factor. Leaving at simply at how it was proposed by Crisco leaves readers wanting to know how it was compared and the video just sounds more interesting if you leave it at that. Many videos have flying effects and illusions, so it will not be very interesting to tell them that that scene in particular was compared. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 18:39, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
  • I disagree: intrigue is fine, but suspense is another thing. There are many reasons why they could be compared, many of them trivial. Adding "a flight scene" is not going to ruin any surprise, IMO. But then, I'm just a grumpy old English teacher. Drmies (talk) 20:09, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Although I prefer ALT2, Penguin's ALT sounds okay... Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:58, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
  • So what is it going to be then? —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 22:34, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
  • ALT2 and ALT3 are fine. Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:00, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
    • I will go with ALT3. Drmies, what do you think? —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 10:23, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
      • Confirm ALT3. ResMar 02:21, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
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