Template:Did you know nominations/Neues Bachisches Collegium Musicum
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:56, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
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Neues Bachisches Collegium Musicum
[edit]... that the Neues Bachisches Collegium Musicum, founded in 1979 by members of the Gewandhausorchester after Bach's model, has played historic programs from 225 years earlier?
- Reviewed: Monroe Morton
Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 16:07, 8 February 2018 (UTC).
Length, history and reference verified. Good to go. Daniel Case (talk) 18:56, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
Daniel Case, as this is supposed to be a QPQ for a special occasion request that was—as is fairly typical of you—nominated with fewer than the minimum number of advance days required for special occasion hooks, the least you could do is give a full review as is required for a QPQ. Please be sure your review specifically addresses all of the criteria shown in the DYK template edit window (which I can see as I type this up).
- Even worse, the hook does not accurately reflect the article. The only referent here for "has played historic programs from 225 years earlier" is "founded in 1979", indicating programs from 1754 or thereabouts. In actuality, this seems to refer to a concert series that ran from 2009 to 2011, with a precursor concert in 2006 (though this last concert is unsourced and could not be referenced in a hook unless it was). The article could also use a copyedit, as the grammar is a bit rougher than is appropriate for the main page. There is also the statement
The Collegium was the basis of the later Gewandhausorchester
, which is unsupported by the source given (which doesn't even mention the Gewandhausorchester); the Collegium may have been the basis of the NBCM, but not of the Gewandhausorchester itself unless there are other sources that support this claim. BlueMoonset (talk) 19:13, 22 February 2018 (UTC)- @BlueMoonset: Some of us can read German ; if you scroll down to "NR 65, 2009/10" (cited at footnote 5), you'll find this text: "54 Historische Konzerte: Die Tonarten der Sinfonien oder die Komponisten der Solokonzerte sucht man auf den 225 Jahre alten Gewandhaus-Programmzetteln vergeblich." You can run it through whatever translation software you prefer, but it seems to me to that it does not cast any doubt on the idea of the NBCM performing 225-year old Bach programs, just saying they couldn't find what keys the originals were performed in. Daniel Case (talk) 04:58, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Addendum: Sentence immediately following: "Umso spannender ist die neue Gewandhaus-Konzertreihe, in der sich das Neue Bachische Collegium Musicum der Rekonstruktion dieser Programme widmet", which Google renders as "All the more exciting is the new Gewandhaus concert series, in which the New Bachische Collegium Musicum is dedicated to the reconstruction of these programs". Are we still in doubt? Daniel Case (talk) 05:01, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Daniel Case, although it's no longer relevant since Gerda Arendt struck the original hook, I was questioning the wording of the hook, which implied that the 225-year concerts dated back from 1979, not that the anniversary concerts never happened at all. In fact, I specifically noted that they had per the article. The concerts seem to have been recreations of Gewandhaus concerts from 225 years previously; there's nothing to say which composers were featured on these programs, and the sources you highlight don't mention works by Bach specifically. But that's a tangent; I wonder that you spent time on it rather than doing the complete review requested and reviewing Gerda Arendt's suggested ALT1, given how little time is left before your nomination needs to run. BlueMoonset (talk) 06:45, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- @BlueMoonset: I felt it necessary to defend my original review from the implied criticism that the assertion made was completely unsourced. I didn't read Gerda's hook as suggesting that the NBCM had been playing such concerts from its founding; forgive me for not anticipating that anyone could. Even given that, however, per your response/clarification above, that hook would have been just fine if she had merely stricken the "founded in 1979" part; I frankly find the idea of recreating original Bach programs would probably attract more clicks than ALT1, as Gerda understood per her remark below. But whatever; what has happened has happened. Daniel Case (talk) 06:59, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Daniel Case, I would find the idea of recreating original Bach programs quite attractive myself, but that's not what these concerts were. The recreated programs are from decades after Bach's death (he died in 1750; the programs are from 1781 and after), and were originally performed by the Gewandhaus orchestra, not Bach's own Collegium. BlueMoonset (talk) 07:14, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- The original hook did not attribute those programs to Bach. It describes them merely as "historic programs", which I still think a lot of readers might click on. Daniel Case (talk) 07:19, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Daniel Case, I would find the idea of recreating original Bach programs quite attractive myself, but that's not what these concerts were. The recreated programs are from decades after Bach's death (he died in 1750; the programs are from 1781 and after), and were originally performed by the Gewandhaus orchestra, not Bach's own Collegium. BlueMoonset (talk) 07:14, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- @BlueMoonset: I felt it necessary to defend my original review from the implied criticism that the assertion made was completely unsourced. I didn't read Gerda's hook as suggesting that the NBCM had been playing such concerts from its founding; forgive me for not anticipating that anyone could. Even given that, however, per your response/clarification above, that hook would have been just fine if she had merely stricken the "founded in 1979" part; I frankly find the idea of recreating original Bach programs would probably attract more clicks than ALT1, as Gerda understood per her remark below. But whatever; what has happened has happened. Daniel Case (talk) 06:59, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Daniel Case, although it's no longer relevant since Gerda Arendt struck the original hook, I was questioning the wording of the hook, which implied that the 225-year concerts dated back from 1979, not that the anniversary concerts never happened at all. In fact, I specifically noted that they had per the article. The concerts seem to have been recreations of Gewandhaus concerts from 225 years previously; there's nothing to say which composers were featured on these programs, and the sources you highlight don't mention works by Bach specifically. But that's a tangent; I wonder that you spent time on it rather than doing the complete review requested and reviewing Gerda Arendt's suggested ALT1, given how little time is left before your nomination needs to run. BlueMoonset (talk) 06:45, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Addendum: Sentence immediately following: "Umso spannender ist die neue Gewandhaus-Konzertreihe, in der sich das Neue Bachische Collegium Musicum der Rekonstruktion dieser Programme widmet", which Google renders as "All the more exciting is the new Gewandhaus concert series, in which the New Bachische Collegium Musicum is dedicated to the reconstruction of these programs". Are we still in doubt? Daniel Case (talk) 05:01, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Back from vacation. Due to limited time, the process of translating something unsourced from the German Wikipedia and finding sources afterwards was even more incomplete than normally, sorry about that. I thought it would be easy to find a source for this 225 years thing which I found interesting, - but it seems too long ago. Let's keep it simple:
- ALT1: ... that the Neues Bachisches Collegium Musicum was founded in 1979 by Max Pommer and members of the Gewandhausorchester after Bach's model?
- There must be a source for Bach's Collegium being the precursor of the Gewandhausorchester, but if it's not in the hook it's probably not needed, right? (... but it wasn't a claim of the original hook either) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:59, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- OK, I have checked it for copyvio (OK), copyedited to clean up the prose so it reads like native English, and verified the hook, which I believe to supported by this source: "Ein auf die Tradition des Bachischen Collegiums zurückgehendes und der historischen Aufführungspraxis verpflichtetes Neues Bachisches Collegium Musicum gründete sich 1979 in Leipzig." Daniel Case (talk) 07:16, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- And just to be on the safe side I checked the German version for copyvio, too. Daniel Case (talk) 07:24, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- @BlueMoonset: Some of us can read German ; if you scroll down to "NR 65, 2009/10" (cited at footnote 5), you'll find this text: "54 Historische Konzerte: Die Tonarten der Sinfonien oder die Komponisten der Solokonzerte sucht man auf den 225 Jahre alten Gewandhaus-Programmzetteln vergeblich." You can run it through whatever translation software you prefer, but it seems to me to that it does not cast any doubt on the idea of the NBCM performing 225-year old Bach programs, just saying they couldn't find what keys the originals were performed in. Daniel Case (talk) 04:58, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
