Template:Did you know nominations/Nayanars

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Montanabw^(talk) 03:40, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Nayanars

... that images of Nandanar, Vayilar, Sakkiya, Idangazhi, Anaya, Kalikamba, Kaliya, Satti, Pusalar, Kungiliya Kalaya, Sadaiya, Murthi, Murkha, Nami Nandi Adigal, Somasi Mara, Isaignaniyar, Viralminda, Eyarkon Kalikkama, Pugal Chola, Eripatha, Manakanchara, Kotpuli, Enathinathar, Sirappuli, Seruthunai, Amaraneedi, Nesa, Pugazh Thunai, Kutruva, Kalarsinga, Munaiyaduvar, Ilayankudi Maranar, Meiporul, Iyarpagai, Tiru Nilakanta Yazhpanar, Tirunilakanta, Tiruneelanakka, Apputhi Adigal are among the 63 Nayanar saints (pictured) are taken out in procession at temple festivals in Tamil Nadu?

Comment: Pusalar and Anaya Nayanar are 5x (somwhere DYKcheck not showing it as 5x, please check manually). Rest are New. More articles are to be added in the hook in this week. Article start from 8-Dec.

Created/expanded by Redtigerxyz (talk). Self nominated at 05:18, 15 December 2014 (UTC).

Reviewed: (38 so far)--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 14:29, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Waiting for other articles and QPQs, but I have decided to review some of the articles.

Vayilar:

new enough, long enough, hook contained in article and cited to an offline source. Passes copyvio checks (the tool brings up two Wikipedia mirrors on the same site, but that is about it). QPQ done (Anti-Greek sentiment). This one is fine.

Sakkiya:

article is new enough (8 December), long enough, and the hook fact is referenced in the article offline. Two Wikipedia mirrors are the only things that appear in the copyvio report. QPQ done (El drama del 15 de octubre).

Idangazhi:

Hook cited offline, AGF. Created on 8 December, meets length requirements easily. Copyvio report brings up two WP mirrors, seems fine. QPQ done (Di Domenico brothers).

Anaya Nayanar:

Expansion requirements easily met, article expanded on 9 December. No copyvio issues. Hook cited offline. QPQ done (Animal Land).

Kalikamba Nayanar:

Created 9 December, long enough, no copyright issues. Hook cited to an offline source. QPQ done (Bucko).

Kaliya Nayanar:

Long enough, created 9 December, passes my copyright checks. The hook is cited to an offline source, and the QPQ is done (Flag of Christmas Island).

Satti Nayanar:

Article created on 9 December, and meets length requirements. No copyright problems. Hook cited inline to an offline source. QPQ done (Shang Qu).

Pusalar:

Expansion done recently enough, easily meets 5x requirements. No copyvio. Hook is cited to an offline source. QPQ done (Hilja Riipinen).

Kungiliya Kalaya Nayanar:

Created 10 December, well-written, meets length requirements for DYK. No copyright issues. Hook contained in the article and cited inline. QPQ done. (Juan Antonio Pérez Simón)

Sadaya Nayanar:

Article made on 13 December, long enough, free of copyvio. Hook in article and cited to an offline source. QPQ done (Family of Bayinnaung).

Murthi Nayanar:

Created 11 Dec, long enough, no copyvio issues, hook in article and cited offline. QPQ done (Teli ka Mandir).

Murkha Nayanar:

Created 12 December. 2970 chars long. No copyright problems. Hook contained in article, cited inline to an offline source. QPQ done (Bhopal: A Prayer for Rain)

Nami Nandi Adigal:

Made on 12 December, 4187 chars long, no copyright problems. Hook contained in article, cited offline. QPQ done (Gandhinagar (Lok Sabha constituency))

The other articles in the hook currently (Somasi Mara Nayanar and Isaignaniyar) need QPQ reviews. However, as the nominator appears to want to to add more articles, I shall leave this nomination for these two and any others to be reviewed. The other articles appear to be fine, and meet DYK standards. Thine Antique Pen (talk) 21:18, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Thine Antique Pen for starting off the reviews. 7 more added. Manakanchara Nayanar, Enathinathar, Kotpuli is 5x (check manually, DYKcheck does not show 5x), others are New. I request you to wait till end of this week so that I can complete the the other articles and QPQs as well as add images from Flickr to the saint articles as well as image on the hook. Redtigerxyz ^Talk 16:53, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

32 articles nominated so far. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 12:16, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Please ping me when you wish me to review the rest. Thine Antique Pen (talk) 15:33, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Thine Antique Pen, Thanks for keeping an eye on this. 33 articles so far. 31 QPQs. I plan to complete by Wed; 4 more articles to go. I will have add images and infoboxes, wherever possible by then. Thanks again for your patience. Will ping you. Redtigerxyz ^Talk 15:52, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Adding 4 more. Nandanar is 5x. Thine Antique Pen, 37 articles are done. I plan to add the LAST article on tomorrow's holy occasion as well as complete the pending QPQs and add the images to most of the articles. Thanks again for your patience. Since this is a long list, you may start reviewing. Merry Christmas to you and your family. God bless ! Redtigerxyz ^Talk 14:51, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

I'll review those with QPQs. I began to look at some of these earlier, and just finished the remaining reviews (for articles with QPQs).

Nandanar:

expansion done, long enough, passes copyvio checks. Hook cited offline. QPQ done (Oops! (film)).

Somasi Mara Nayanar:

created 12 Dec, long enough, no copvio issues, cited offline. QPQ done (Zareh Sinanyan).

Isaignaniyar:

new enough, long enough, no copyvio, hook cited inline to an offline source. QPQ: Server Sundaram.

Viralminda Nayanar:

created on 15 December, long enough, copyright checks passed, hook cited to an offline source. QPQ: Madame Clémentine Valensi Stora (L'Algérienne).

Eyarkon Kalikkama Nayanar:

new enough, long enough, free from copyvio, hook cited inline. QPQ: Madame Clémentine Valensi Stora (L'Algérienne).

Pugal Chola:

long enough, new enough, no copyright problems shown by tool, hook cited offline, QPQ done (Statue of Charles II, Soho Square).

Eripatha Nayanar:

new enough, long enough, passes copyvio checks, hook cited. QPQ done (Storeton Hall).

Manakanchara Nayanar:

expanded recently, long enough, no copyvio, hook cited inline to an offline source, QPQ done (Blakumen).

Kotpuli:

expansion done, hook cited, no copyvio, neutral, QPQ done (Saint Bartholomew Monastery).

Enathinathar:

expansion requirements met, QPQ done (Amphianthus dohrnii) #1, hook cited offline, neutral, no copyright problems raised by tool

Sirappuli Nayanar:

created 16 Dec, new enough, long enough, hook cited, free from copyright issues, is neutral, QPQ done (Amphianthus dohrnii) #2.

Seruthunai Nayanar:

created 17 December, long enough, hook cited offline, meets core policies, no copyright problems, neutral, QPQ done (Amphianthus dohrnii) #3.

Amaraneedi Nayanar:

17 Dec, long enough, hook cited inline to offline source, copyvio checks passed. QPQ done (Mitchler Run).

Nesa Nayanar:

17 December, new enough, long enough, hook cited in article, no copyvio problems, QPQ done (Shingle Run (Huntington Creek)).

Pugazh Thunai Nayanar:

created on 17 December, long enough, new enough, free from copyvio, hook cited inline to an offline source, QPQ done: (Arnold Creek (Huntington Creek)).

Kutruva Nayanar:

19 Dec creation, new enough, long enough, hook cited, no copyright problems, QPQ done: Lick Branch.

Kalarsinga Nayanar:

long enough, new, hook cited in article, no copyright issues, neutral, QPQ done (Phillips Creek).

Munaiyaduvar:

new enough, long enough, hook cited, no copyvio, QPQ done (Beda people).

Ilayankudi Maranar:

recently created, long enough, free from copyright problems/close paraphrasing, hook cited, QPQ done (Ram ke Naam).

Meiporul Nayanar:

new enough, QPQ done (Uma Maheswaran), long enough, no copyvio problems, hook is in article and cited offline.

Iyarpagai Nayanar:

long enough, new enough, cited inline, meets key polities, free from copyvio, neutral, QPQ done (Tom Wills portrait).

Tiru Nilakanta Yazhpanar:

new and long enough, hook cited to an offline source, passes checks of copyvio tool. QPQ done (Charles DeWitt Watts).

Merry Christmas! Note that some of these bring up a Wikipedia mirror in the copyvio checks, but otherwise, there appears to be nothing problematic. Waiting on the last article and the remaining QPQs. Thine Antique Pen (talk) 15:19, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Thine Antique Pen Alas, the final article Apputhi Adigal (5x) and QPQs are done. Happy reviewing. :) Redtigerxyz ^Talk 19:19, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Kalikamba Nayanar: new enough, long enough, no copyvio, hook cited. QPQ: Jeong Seon.
Tirunilakanta Nayanar: new enough, long enough, no copyvio, hook is cited inline to an offline source. QPQ: Vinnytsia II (single-mandate constituency).
Tiruneelanakka Nayanar: article long enough, new, meets requirements, no copyright violations, hook cited. QPQ: Indian National Congress campaign for Indian general election, 2014.
Apputhi Adigal: 5x expanded, hook cited, no copyvio. QPQ: Swatantra 2014.

OVERALL:

GTG, and image is freely licensed. Thine Antique Pen (talk) 23:04, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

- Has nobody else noticed that the hook is comically over the character limit? Panyd^{The muffin is not subtle} 20:58, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Panyd, I have shortened it to 587 characters. These are the shortest names of these saints. It can not be reduced any further. The longest hook till date is 624 characters. See Wikipedia:Did you know/Multiple Article Hook Hall of Fame. Also, the length is within limits as per Wikipedia:Did you know/Supplementary guidelines C3 calculations for hook length. Redtigerxyz ^Talk 04:57, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Reverting to Thine Antique Pen's AGF approval. Panyd, per WP:DYKSG#C3, only one of the links in a multi-article hook should be counted in reckoning the length against the 200 prose character maximum. Even counting the longest of them, I get a length of 136 (excluding "(pictured)" as per usual), which is well within reason. For the promoter: since the hook is as long as three full-length hooks, the normal seven hooks in the prep set should be reduced to five, and be sure the other four hooks are of varying (shorter) lengths. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:54, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Due to the overlapping content between these articles, several fall short of the original-content minimum character count. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:18, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Sadaiya Nayanar- TOTAL 2011 B (full article) be given the credit of all content as repeated part of Intro as well as collective worship for calculation (which does not exist in earlier Nayanar articles) and was first written by me for this DYK series. In Intro, "was a Nayanar saint, venerated in the Hindu sect of Shaivism. He is generally counted as the ____ in the list of 63 Nayanars" is repeated; the numbering of the Nayanar is changed. Since most of the Nayanars are depicted in similar hand posture: "He is depicted with ... folded hands (see Anjali mudra)." appears in most of the articles. Additional features like crown, shaven head, or an object in crook of the hand is handed to iconographical depiction. The holy day allocated to each Nayanar is a combination of month and nakshatra so "_______ Nayanar is worshipped in the Tamil month of ____, when the moon enters the _____ nakshatra (lunar mansion)." appears most articles, however the blank values are different. "He receives collective worship as part of the 63 Nayanars. Their icons and brief accounts of his deeds are found in many Shiva temples in Tamil Nadu. Their images are taken out in procession in festivals." is repeated in all articles. Size of non-repeating parts (original content):

Isaignaniyar - 1940 char (removing overlapping of Sadaiya Nayanar) - TOTAL 4079 B
Nandanar: TOTAL 17kb (most of the content is unique)
Vayilar Life section about 1928 characters (Since over 1500 characters, original in other sections is not counted) - TOTAL 2944
Sakkiya Nayanar Life section about 1951 characters (Since over 1500 characters, original in other sections is not counted) - TOTAL 3414
Idangazhi Life section about 1739 characters (Since over 1500 characters, original in other sections is not counted) - TOTAL 2627
Anaya Nayanar Life section about 1941 characters (Since over 1500 characters, original in other sections is not counted) - TOTAL 3127
Kalikamba Nayanar Life section about 2066 characters (Since over 1500 characters, original in other sections is not counted) - TOTAL 2859
Kaliya Nayanar about 1966 characters (entire article) - TOTAL 2447
Satti Nayanar 1946 char (entire article) - TOTAL 2411
Pusalar 3 paras in Life 2419 char (Since over 1500 characters, original in other sections/para is not counted) - TOTAL 4744
Kungiliya Kalaya Nayanar 2 paras in Life 1741 char (Since over 1500 characters, original in other sections/para is not counted) - TOTAL 4960
Murthi Nayanar Life 2204 chars (Since over 1500 characters, original in other sections/para is not counted) - TOTAL 3533
Murkha Nayanar Life 1681 char (Since over 1500 characters, original in other sections/para is not counted) - TOTAL 3080
Nami Nandi Adigal Life 2 para 2518 char (Since over 1500 characters, original in other sections/para is not counted) - TOTAL 4171
Somasi Mara Nayanar Life 2 para 1815 char (Since over 1500 characters, original in other sections/para is not counted) - TOTAL 4248
Viralminda Nayanar Life 2 para 1807 char (Since over 1500 characters, original in other sections/para is not counted) - TOTAL 5850
Pugal Chola Life 2 paras 1719 paras (not counting his interaction with Eripatha Nayanar) (Since over 1500 characters, original in other sections/para is not counted) - TOTAL 5261
Eripatha Nayanar Life 2 paras 2531 para (Since over 1500 characters, original in other sections/para is not counted) - TOTAL 4066
Eyarkon Kalikkama Nayanar Life 1 para 1859 char (not counting his interaction with Manakanchara Nayanar) (Since over 1500 characters, original in other sections/para is not counted) - TOTAL 4778
Manakanchara Nayanar Life 2 paras 2236 char (Since over 1500 characters, original in other sections/para is not counted) - TOTAL 4876
Kotpuli Life 2 paras 1807 char (Since over 1500 characters, original in other sections/para is not counted) - TOTAL 3332
Enathinathar Life 2 paras 2071 char (Since over 1500 characters, original in other sections/para is not counted) - TOTAL 4559
Sirappuli Nayanar about 1843 char (entire article) - TOTAL 2640
Kalarsinga Nayanar Identification and dating 1748 char (not counting his interaction with Seruthunai Nayanar) (Since over 1500 characters, original in other sections/para is not counted) - TOTAL 5367
Seruthunai Nayanar Life 1704 (Since over 1500 characters, original in other sections/para is not counted) - TOTAL 2942
Amaraneedi Nayanar Life 2 paras 1766 (Since over 1500 characters, original in other sections/para is not counted) - TOTAL 4669
Nesa Nayanar - 1862 (entire article) TOTAL 2824
Pugazh Thunai Nayanar 1990 (entire article) - TOTAL 2745
Kutruva Nayanar Life 1853 (Since over 1500 characters, original in other sections/para is not counted) - TOTAL 3100
Munaiyaduvar 2072 (entire article) - TOTAL 2930
Ilayankudi Maranar Life 1644 (Since over 1500 characters, original in other sections/para is not counted) - TOTAL 3720
Meiporul Nayanar Life 1 para 1769 (Since over 1500 characters, original in other sections/para is not counted) - TOTAL 5409
Iyarpagai Nayanar Life 2355 (Since over 1500 characters, original in other sections/para is not counted) - TOTAL 4255
Tiru Nilakanta Yazhpanar Life 4 paras 2014 (not counting his interaction with Tiruneelanakka Nayanar) (Since over 1500 characters, original in other sections/para is not counted) - TOTAL 5786
Tiruneelanakka Nayanar Life 3 paras 2199 (Since over 1500 characters, original in other sections/para is not counted) - TOTAL 5457
Tirunilakanta Nayanar Life 3 paras 2462 (Since over 1500 characters, original in other sections/para is not counted) - TOTAL SIZE: 6324 B
Apputhi Adigal Life 3 paras 2308 (Since over 1500 characters, original in other sections/para is not counted) TOTAl - 4661

~~Redtigerxyz ^Talk 06:46, 6 January 2015 (UTC)~~ Numbers updated. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 16:45, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Those numbers don't appear to be correct. For example, DYKcheck is showing under 900 characters of original prose for Nesa Nayanar, while Isaignaniyar and Sadaya Nayanar are so nearly identical that the latter has under 500 characters of original prose. Nikkimaria (talk) 06:54, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Nikkimaria, as per my calculations, only 5 articles may need additional expansion. Since the repeated content (intro and Remembrance - collective worship) is also created by me first for these DYKs, it should be included in calculation of at least 1 article. I suggest that the intro be calculated in one article and collective worship para in another article. Please let me know your views. Redtigerxyz ^Talk 06:58, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes Nikkimaria, I missed your comment at the end. As per my calculations, Satti Nayanar, Nesa Nayanar, Isaignaniyar, Munaiyaduvar and Sadaya Nayanar are the only ones that need additional expansion. But the repeating content is also written by me for these DYKs, I should be given credit for 1/more articles upon distribution of the content. Also, please point out the other articles which have the original prose issue if you disagree with these numbers. What tool are you using for original prose? Redtigerxyz ^Talk 07:11, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Nikkimaria, Nesa Nayanar, Munaiyaduvar, Satti Nayanar and Isaignaniyar is expanded. Please check. Please let me if any other articles need to be expanded.Redtigerxyz ^Talk 16:45, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

The repeated content is included in the calculation of the article in which it first appeared, which is (almost entirely) Vayilar, though it's difficult to track as some of the material that's been added is also repeated between articles. Thus, Sirappuli Nayanar, Sadaya Nayanar, and Satti Nayanar are too short, and the additions generally need copyediting. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:28, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Since all of these articles are created by me as series for this DYK and no one else has edited the repeated part, I suggest that the repeated content be included in the calculation of Sadaya Nayanar, instead of the longer Vayilar. I will expand Sirappuli Nayanar, Satti Nayanar and Vayilar (if needed). Also, please let me know what tool you using for the calculation so I can know how much I need to expand. Redtigerxyz ^Talk 05:10, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

User:Shubinator/DYKcheck. I don't think that suggestion is appropriate, particularly in light of supplementary rule A5, but I will request a second opinion at WT:DYK. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:19, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Nikkimaria; Sirappuli Nayanar, Satti Nayanar is expanded. Is any other article expect Sadaya needed to be expanded? Vayilar if Sadaya is considered the base article? Redtigerxyz ^Talk 07:25, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Sadaiya Nayanar is also expanded. Nikkimaria, please check. Redtigerxyz ^Talk 06:23, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

As per Wikipedia_talk:Did_you_know#Second_opinion_needed_-_Template:Did_you_know_nominations.2FNayanars, I have expanded all necessary articles. So even if the repeated content is not counted in character length, it is above 1500 characters. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 06:18, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Okay, articles are now long enough, though both they and the hook need copyediting. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:19, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Nikkimaria and Thine Antique Pen have looked critically at these articles and I rely on their statements mentioned above. As far as I can see, all these articles qualify for DYK under the newness and length criteria. The hook fact is used in all the articles and has an inline citation to a reliable book source. The image is suitably licensed and the articles seem neutral. The limited spot checks I made did not indicate any copyright/close paraphrasing issues. Nikkimaria mentions a need for copyediting. I do not think this is a bar to DYK and in any event, I thought the text sufficiently good for this long-delayed nomination to go ahead. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:37, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Cwmhiraeth, Nikkimaria mentioned that the articles and the hook need copyediting, and for the hook that's certainly true. Can you please explain what "that images of [list of saints] are taken out in procession in temple festivals" means? Are they taken out (carried?) in processions? Are they taken out in a certain order? It could be something as simple as replacing "in procession" with "for processions" (or perhaps it should be "all taken out for processions"?), or there may be another meaning that we're missing. To my eye, Nikkimaria was right about the hook, and even if we're to forgive the articles for the "in procession" locution, I don't believe it works for the main page. BlueMoonset (talk) 14:47, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

On further thoughts, the original hook will not do because the article Nayanars does not mention processions. Other than that, each article uses the sentence "Their images are taken out in procession in festivals." I took this to mean that during processions, images of the saints are carried. Redtigerxyz can confirm whether this is the case. If so, the hook could be:

ALT1 ... that images of Nandanar, Vayilar, Sakkiya, Idangazhi, Anaya, Kalikamba, Kaliya, Satti, Pusalar, Kungiliya Kalaya, Sadaiya, Murthi, Murkha, Nami Nandi Adigal, Somasi Mara, Isaignaniyar, Viralminda, Eyarkon Kalikkama, Pugal Chola, Eripatha, Manakanchara, Kotpuli, Enathinathar, Sirappuli, Seruthunai, Amaraneedi, Nesa, Pugazh Thunai, Kutruva, Kalarsinga, Munaiyaduvar, Ilayankudi Maranar, Meiporul, Iyarpagai, Tiru Nilakanta Yazhpanar, Tirunilakanta, Tiruneelanakka, and Apputhi Adigal are among the 63 Nayanar saints (pictured) paraded during processions at temple festivals in Tamil Nadu? Cwmhiraeth (talk) 18:12, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

BlueMoonset Deity taken out in procession on Day 3, The Jagannatha Temple at Puri: Its Architecture, Art, and Cult By O. M. Starza, BRILL, Poems to Siva: The Hymns of the Tamil Saints, Princeton University Press [1]: "taken out in procession" is the most common way used to convey the meaning. The phrase is used for parading of religious icons in academic usage. Besides Hinduism, it may be also used for Muslim [2] (rarely Christian) usage.

Cwmhiraeth thanks for ALT1. Query about the meaning: Icons may be in chariots, carts, cars (which are pulled by devotees or driven by horses, oxen, engines etc.) or paraded in palanquins or held in devotees' hands. Will "carry in procession" be accurate in these situations? Redtigerxyz ^Talk 19:10, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I have changed "carried" to "paraded" in ALT1. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 20:32, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Cwmhiraeth, paraded seems more accurate. Thanks. BlueMoonset, any other issues? Is ALT1 ok? Redtigerxyz ^Talk 05:28, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Redtigerxyz, I've struck the original hook; ALT1 has addressed the issues I had with it. Thanks for explaining how the processions work. BlueMoonset (talk) 06:04, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

BlueMoonset, can you restore the tick? :) Redtigerxyz ^Talk 06:10, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

ALT1 seems acceptable to all and I believe I can restore my tick. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:43, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, you can restore your tick; only a few words were changed in the hook between the original and ALT1. Thanks, Cwmhiraeth. BlueMoonset (talk) 22:47, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Promoter's note: I chose to promote this article without the image due in part to the small scale of the image here being rather fuzzy,plus large number of images in other approved hooks, and also because there are many images Hindu deities in other DYKs in the nomination queue. Montanabw^(talk) 04:19, 6 February 2015 (UTC)