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Template:Did you know nominations/Naim Dangoor

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by BobAmnertiopsis∴ChatMe! 17:42, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

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Naim Dangoor

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Created by JzG (talk). Self nominated at 23:58, 19 May 2014 (UTC).

  • At the moment the hook is ~330 characters long. The rule is that DYK hooks shouldn't be longer than 200 characters, but generally shorter is better and more likely to hook readers in, so it'd be great if you could propose a shorter hook. 97198 (talk) 06:54, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Shortened. Tough bit is, this is one of those "wow!" stories. The guy is amazing. Guy (Help!) 22:44, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Shortened hook a bit more, and unlinked refugee, as it is a common enough word. Edwardx (talk) 14:35, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Full review needed now that hook has been set. BlueMoonset (talk) 06:00, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
  • New enough (for 19 May). Hook checks out online with citations #1 and #2. I make the hook 202 characters, but I'm accepting BlueMoonset's opinion. No problems with disambig links or with external links. The article is written objectively (no neutrality issues). No copyvio found (checked all ext. links). Issues: (1) The article's prose character count is 1494 characters - can we find 6 characters from somewhere? (2) Two paragraphs are uncited. If these two issues can be resolved, the nom should pass OK. --Storye book (talk) 13:14, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Notes on possible minor expansion: For example, his birth year is approx 1914 and his UK charitable work was done in return for the asylum he received there, according to citation #2. Also, the addition of subheadings would facilitate further additions by others and make the article look less like a stub. For example: Background, Leaving Iraq, Charitable work in UK.--Storye book (talk) 13:14, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
  • The hook has 198 characters (the ellipsis and space before the initial "that" do not count, according to the rules), which is why I said it was "set". However, while it's under the absolute max of 200, the reviewer still has the option to request it be made shorter, as shorter and snappier tends to be better. For example, "as a refugee in 1964" could be deleted, and I think it would be more effective, and only have 177 characters. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:44, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
  • @ BlueMoonset. If you would kindly give us the ALT1 that you suggested, I'd be happy to accept it. The two issues mentioned in my review remain unresolved, though, and as of today the article has not been edited since 22 May. --Storye book (talk) 08:23, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
  • @ Skr15081997. Thank you for resolving both of the outstanding issues. Since BlueMoonset has requested an ALT1, let's do that. Please could you kindly write an ALT1 for us - just copy and paste the original hook, but delete the "as a refugee in 1964" bit? If you can do that, I'll pass this nom. --Storye book (talk) 15:15, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Good to go with ALT1 (Thanks guys!) --Storye book (talk) 16:17, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
  • I'm sorry, but I don't see any mention of 4,000 student bursaries in the article, which talks about a general amount, "£4m for university scholarships", but nothing more specific. (The sentence with that £4m has as its only source one that supports the cancer donation, but not the university money, which is a problem.) This bursaries fact will need to be added to the article and specifically sourced if ALT1 is to be used as is. (I've just wikilinked "bursaries", since it isn't a term known across the pond here in the U.S.) As far as I can tell, the facts may come the BBC source (FN1), though it gives the total value of the gift as £3m, not £4m. This was a 2009 gift, when Dangoor was 95 years old (why is his age not given in the article?); there appears to have been a 2004 gift of £1m to the same group of institutions when Dangoor was 90, also for bursaries, which may be how the total amount was derived. (See FN2.) One important thing about sourcing: rense.com, as an unauthorized reprinter, shouldn't be used, but the original sources should be. In this case, there are two articles at that Rense web page: a Wall Street Journal article that is likely available on the net, and a Guardian article that's already been cited here as FN3. BTW, Dangoor turned 100 in April, and made another major donation then; see this source. BlueMoonset (talk) 20:09, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
  • I did definitely see the online source for the 4,000 bursaries with citation #1: "He will contribute towards bursaries for 4,000 students in subjects including science and maths ... The £1,000 bursaries, given in addition to other existing financial support, will be for students ..." (1k x 4k = 4m) - sorry I missed the fact that it wasn't spelled out in the article. Could you kindly edit the article for us, please, Skr15081997? --Storye book (talk) 22:58, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Storye book, the rense.com link has been removed, birth year and the hook fact have been added in the article.--Skr15081997 (talk) 06:35, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Thank you, Skr15081997.--Storye book (talk) 11:08, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Thank you, Bluemoonset for bringing our attention to the problems with the hook. OK, let's go over citations 1-7. ALT1 has four things to back up: lost everything in Iraq, made a fortune in the UK, gave 4k bursaries, gave 1+ million. #1 says Dangoor had a UK property business and gave £3m towards 4k bursaries costing £1k each, and the govt paid the remaining £1m. So in effect Dangoor only bought 3,000 bursaries according to #1. #2 says he lost everything in Iraq then had a "highly successful career in property" in the UK, from which he gave £1m for scholarships. #3 says he "prospered" and was "living in splendour" in the UK, but that when already living in the UK he decided not to risk going back to Iraq, i.e. he did not flee. #4 says he " became a success once more, building a property development business" and that he gave £1m for university bursaries or scholarships in 2005, and it refers to the £4m Eliahou Dangoor scholarship scheme mentioned in #1 (= £4m donations in total). As I understand it, the bursary is the money, and the scholarship is the educational benefit purchased by the money. #5 is a repeat of #4. #6 says he gave £1.1m to the cancer charity #7 says he gave £2m to medicine--Storye book (talk) 11:08, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Summary: ALT1 is all supported by citations except that (a) he funded 3,000 bursaries, not 4,000, and (b) he did not flee Iraq; his Iraqi property was confiscated and he was afraid to return. So we need a new ALT which is based carefully and exactly on available sources, is written out in the text and is fully cited there. --Storye book (talk) 11:08, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
It's my mistake, I should have checked all this earlier.--Skr15081997 (talk) 11:15, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
  • No worries, we'll launch this nom yet! --Storye book (talk) 11:41, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Storye book, I think we can say he helped endow 4,000 bursaries: his gift was for that many, but he didn't fund them in full. It's like matching funds: he would supply 75% if someone else supplied 25%, but he specified that the money was to go to create all 4,000. I don't think we can say he only supplied the money for 3,000, since that contradicts the sources. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:23, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Okay then, the article has been altered accordingly, so I'm striking ALT1 and replacing it with the quite similar ALT1a:
Storye book, is this sufficient for you to proceed with the review now? Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:16, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Thank you for the new hook, BlueMoonset. There is still the issue of Dangoor not actually fleeing Iraq. He was already really an Iraqi ex-pat and was domiciled mainly in the UK when his property in Iraq was confiscated and the political situation in Iraq changed such that he was afraid to go back there. That's not fleeing. Simply changing the word "fled" to "left" in ALT1a would resolve this issue. We're nearly there! --Storye book (talk) 10:36, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
  • The same change would need to be made in the first and second paragraphs of the article. It looks to me like the University of Leicester and Russell Group sources (text is identical, so I'd pick one) has the most coherent timeline of events, although it isn't cited in either of those places: moved to London in 1964, and then that year came the requirement to move back or forfeit assets, at which point voluntary exile/asylum began. FN3 says he was "visiting" London in 1964, and stayed when the decree was promulgated, while FN2 just says that he kept a base in Iraq until 1964 and was in England with his family when the decree was issued. Skr15081997, you need to update the article, and not just by changing the two occurrences of "fled" but by better explaining the series of events. After that, I can do an ALT1b with the change Storye book suggests, and this will be ready to roll. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:33, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Storye book, I have made the necessary changes. Though I had neither created the article nor nominated it, my edits have made it much better than it was at the time of nomination.--Skr15081997 (talk) 11:31, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Thank you, Skr15081997. Just two things left to do now. (a) "Forfeited" is misused in the article (google it). Please replace it with "confiscated" or similar wording. (b) Please give us an ALT1b as agreed by Bluemoonset above, i.e. a hook identical to ALT1a but with "fled" replaced by "left". When issues a and b are dealt with, this nom should be OK. --Storye book (talk) 12:16, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
Storye book, here's another hook. I have made the changes to the article.--Skr15081997 (talk) 12:39, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
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