Template:Did you know nominations/Morphia of Melitene
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 16:38, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
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Morphia of Melitene
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that when her husband got captured by the Turks, Queen Morphia hired a band of secretly armed "monks" and "merchants" to infiltrate the prison and rescue him – only for him to be captured again?Source: Runciman p. 163: "Fifty of them came in various disguises to Kharpurt and were allowed entry as being monks and merchants of the district with a grievance that they asked to lay before the governor. Once inside the fortress they produced arms from beneath their garments and overpowered the garrison. Baldwin and Joscelin suddenly found themselves the masters of their prison."
Improved to Good Article status by Surtsicna (talk). Self-nominated at 22:17, 14 November 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Morphia of Melitene; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.
Promoted to GA status on 11/14 satisfying DYK's newness requirement. The article is also long enough, well sourced and cited, neutrally written, and appears compliant with policy. An Earwig checks out fine. Hook is short enough (194 characters) and interesting. QPQ underway. The only thing holding me back from approving is the accuracy of the hook: The article says Morphia hired a band of 50 Armenian soldiers who posed as monks and merchants and in other disguises. The hook, by contrast, says she hired monks and merchants and omits to say that they were soldiers and not actually monks and merchants. The hook needs to be factual and accurate, so this needs to be fixed. Ping me when this is resolved.`Cbl62 (talk) 06:14, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Cbl62, the scare quotes are there to indicate (or at least strongly imply) that the men she hired were not actual monks and merchants. Surtsicna (talk) 07:37, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- I appreciate the desire to come up with an entertaining hook, but DYK rules provide that a hook must include "a definite fact that is unlikely to change". Here, we have a hook that is clearly not factual or accurate, i.e., the band of 50 were not monks and merchants. They were hired soldiers posing as monks, merchants and wearing others disguises. "Scare quotes" do not make the hook any more "factual". To the contrary, the very purpose of "scare quotes" is to
"convey an ironic, skeptical, or even derisive stance toward the word or phrase they enclose; they signal a nonstandard use, which often requires a reader to read between the lines to intuit the particular sense intended by the author."
See here. A hook that at worst is false and at best requires the reader to "read between the lines" is the antithesis of "a definite fact that is unlikely to change", as required by DYK rules. Cbl62 (talk) 13:56, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- I appreciate the desire to come up with an entertaining hook, but DYK rules provide that a hook must include "a definite fact that is unlikely to change". Here, we have a hook that is clearly not factual or accurate, i.e., the band of 50 were not monks and merchants. They were hired soldiers posing as monks, merchants and wearing others disguises. "Scare quotes" do not make the hook any more "factual". To the contrary, the very purpose of "scare quotes" is to
- Cbl62, the scare quotes are there to indicate (or at least strongly imply) that the men she hired were not actual monks and merchants. Surtsicna (talk) 07:37, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- You might consider an alt hook along these lines ... that Queen Morphia hired a band of soldiers disguised as monks and merchants to rescue her husband from a Turkish fortress – only for him to be captured again? Cbl62 (talk) 14:02, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- That one is good too, and shorter, but I am not sure if it tells a good story. How about replacing the scare quotes with the word fake? ... that when her husband got captured by the Turks, Queen Morphia hired a band of secretly armed fake monks and merchants to infiltrate the prison and rescue him – only for him to be captured again? Surtsicna (talk) 17:51, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
New reviewer needed unless @Cbl62: returns. Z1720 (talk) 03:38, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
