Template:Did you know nominations/Modern Paganism and New Age
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Desertarun (talk) 19:56, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
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Modern Paganism and New Age
- ... that Pagans and New Agers typically view history in different ways? Source: "The New Age movement has essentially recast Joachim de Flores's twelfth-century 'Three Ages of History' theory into astrological terminology ... On the other hand, with its essential distance from both Christian terminology and astrological reinterpretation of the ages of history, contemporary Paganism does not entertain the notions of either literal apocalypticism or metaphorical millenarianism." (The Encyclopedia of Modern Witchcraft and Neo-Paganism, pp. 183–184)
- ALT1:... that the modern Pagan and New Age movements each have accused the other of egocentrism and narcissism? Source: "Indeed, as proponents of each movement accuse the other of narcissism, excessive ego-centrism, and overconcern with worldly preoccupations, a fundamental distinction between Neo-paganism and New Age relates to their respective reality evaluations and goal objectives." (The Emerging Network: A Sociology of the New Age and Neo-pagan Movements, p. 167)
Created by Ffranc (talk). Self-nominated at 08:31, 9 June 2021 (UTC).
I quite like that we have this article now, and it technically passes DYK shape, but it seems to have some noticeable gaps, and I'm not sold on either proposed hook. In particular, there's no discussion of how outsiders to both often use "New Age" as a blanket term for a cluster of faiths including both Neopaganism and what the article defines as New Age, including the Pew Research Center's classification of faith in America. (I think that could be grounds for a decent ALT2 when added, although I'm not currently focusing on alternative hooks until the other issues are resolved.) I particularly think you should expand on the New-Age-as-insult description, if the sourcing exists to do so; this is something I see a lot, to the point of treating it as outright charlatanism. Although, to counter that -- I also think this article scans as written rather more from the Neopagan perspective, and that there isn't quite enough weight on the New Age perspective. I also see a fairly homogenous idea of what "New Age", a heterogeneous term if there ever was one, is (particularly noting the "battle between light and darkness" idea, when many LHPers are much closer to New Age than they are to Neopagan!). I think there are neutrality and weight issues as you stand, in addition to the matter of not being sold on the current hooks. Vaticidalprophet 09:56, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
- I expanded a bit using the entry on "Paganism and the New Age" from Brill's Handbook of New Age, which hopefully gives more of a New Age focus (although it's written by "a scholar of Wicca", Harrington p. 438). But the pagan emphasis is somewhat unavoidable; as the article explains, New Age material is less inclined to address distinctions, so much of the useful material here will be about pagans pointing out differences. As for using New Age as an umbrella term that includes paganism, this is covered in the "Relations" section, and described in the sources as less common in the 21st century. I've expanded on it now and given it its own subheading. But I'm reluctant about using it in a hook, because recent academic sources don't really do it.
- The sources mention New-Age-as-insult, but don't really go into detail about it, but I've added it to the lead section now. I added left-hand path as a "see also" link but couldn't find sources that address it within this discourse; it might fit better in an article comparing occultism to either New Age or modern Paganism, if that's notable, or maybe an article on occulture. There are several subjects that are related in similar ways: Theosophy, renaissance magic etc, but if they aren't explicitly compared in the sources there isn't much we can do without WP:SYNTH. Ffranc (talk) 14:07, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
- All good. I've been thinking about this; it's a hard topic to confidently come up with a hook for. I'm still not convinced the 'average reader' looking at Wikipedia's main page knows that these are different concepts (or that outside researchers are even in the 21st century as inclined to treat these differently at the article posits), and I think it'd be important for the hook to highlight that in a way I don't think either current hook does. Some alts?:
ALT2: ... that modern Paganism and New Age religions can be distinguished by their focus on collectivism and individualism respectively?- ALT3: ... that Michael York, contrasting modern Paganism and the New Age, argued the two are "rival theologies" on opposite ends of a "Gnostic-Pagan divide"?
- I've asked around a bit about hooks, because I think this might do well with having someone who doesn't know much about the topic look at it to find what stands out as hooky. Vaticidalprophet 00:50, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
- I struck ALT2 because the dichotomy isn't as clear as that, neither in the sources nor the article, and the terminology is politically charged. The hook with the York quotes works, although I think it's less hooky than the original two. Ffranc (talk) 08:51, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
- Vaticidalprophet, do you still think there are neutrality issues with the article or is it just the hooks that need to be improved? Ffranc (talk) 13:21, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
- I struck ALT2 because the dichotomy isn't as clear as that, neither in the sources nor the article, and the terminology is politically charged. The hook with the York quotes works, although I think it's less hooky than the original two. Ffranc (talk) 08:51, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
- All good. I've been thinking about this; it's a hard topic to confidently come up with a hook for. I'm still not convinced the 'average reader' looking at Wikipedia's main page knows that these are different concepts (or that outside researchers are even in the 21st century as inclined to treat these differently at the article posits), and I think it'd be important for the hook to highlight that in a way I don't think either current hook does. Some alts?:
- The sources mention New-Age-as-insult, but don't really go into detail about it, but I've added it to the lead section now. I added left-hand path as a "see also" link but couldn't find sources that address it within this discourse; it might fit better in an article comparing occultism to either New Age or modern Paganism, if that's notable, or maybe an article on occulture. There are several subjects that are related in similar ways: Theosophy, renaissance magic etc, but if they aren't explicitly compared in the sources there isn't much we can do without WP:SYNTH. Ffranc (talk) 14:07, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
- Here are two more alts, hopefully at least one of them will work:
- ALT4: ... that a common difference between modern Paganism and New Age is that the former focuses more on the external world and the latter on the inner life of the individual? Source: "Generally speaking, whereas we have seen that much in the New Age is explicitly epistemologically individualistic, focusing on enabling the individual to 'go within' and to discover the 'Higher Self', in Paganism there is a greater emphasis on the other, on that which is external to the self: the planet, the deities and the community." (The Re-Enchantment of the West. Volume 1: Alternative Spiritualities, Sacralization, Popular Culture, and Occulture, p. 79)
- ALT5: ... that scholars of New Age have treated modern Paganism and New Age as the same phenomenon, but this has been disputed by scholars of modern Paganism? Sources: "Hanegraaff has produced a number of papers on esoteric spirituality, and the book New Age Religion and Western Culture: Esotericism in the Mirror of Secular Thought (1996). ... In the midst of groundbreaking work on esoteric religion, Hanegraaff and Faivre conflate Paganism and Witchcraft into a misleading homogenous whole. ... Paul Heelas' The New Age Movement: The Celebration of the Self and the Sacrilization of Modernity (1996) makes a comparison of Paganism and New Age that is similar to that of Hanegraaff. ... Jo Pearson wrote a paper on 'Assumed Affinities: Wicca and the New Age' (1998a) in a direct response to, and refutation of, Heelas' book. In the paper, she critically examines Heelas' three principles, concluding they do not apply to Wicca." (Handbook of New Age, pp. 437–438, 441) "Heelas included Witches and Wiccans within New Age identity as well as Druids, shamans, and other modernday Pagans. Once again, despite their differences, neither movement conforms to Roy Wallis's understanding of the 'world-rejecting' new religious movement." (The Encyclopedia of Modern Witchcraft and Neo-Paganism, p. 183)
- Ffranc (talk) 12:58, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
- Here are two more alts, hopefully at least one of them will work:
- Comment A DYK article does not need to pass a GA style review. It needs to be a "start" class and this article is. If the article lacks aspects that you would like then add them or add that comment to the talk page. If it technically passes DYK and it has a hooky hook ... then tick. Its great to improve articles but its unfair to withhold the tick. Victuallers (talk) 16:18, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
