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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:00, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Mary Dunn (sports executive)

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  • ... that in ice hockey, Mary Dunn "got many a free ride"? Source: [1]

Created by Flibirigit (talk). Self-nominated at 02:44, 27 June 2021 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems

Hook eligibility:

  • Cited: Yes
  • Interesting: Yes
  • Other problems: No - Hook is unclear/misleading. The context of the "free ride" statement is that when Mary Dunn was on the University of Manitoba Bison women's hockey team, the team practiced with "Andy Blair and other members of the Bison men's hockey team. She recalled in a 1938 interview that the men did not hesitate to use physical contact and she 'got many a free ride' on the ice." Getting a "free ride" sounds to me like the men treated the women players easily which contradicts the idea of the men not hesitating to use physical contact. This is not explained in the article. However, the cited source does clarify it, saying, "Mrs. Jimmie Dunn remembers the time when Varsity girls' hockey team practised with such players as Andy Blair and his contemporaries. If a girl got in their way they would just lift her up and dump her elsewhere. Mrs. Dunn got many a free ride." [2] In other words, the "free ride" was from one part of the ice to wherever the other player put her. I would prefer to use a hook which is clear and not misleading on its own without having to refer to the underlying source to figure out what the hook even means.
QPQ: Done.

Overall: With a better hook, I would be fine with seeing this article at DYK. Metropolitan90 (talk) 03:25, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

  • I am completely baffled and have no idea what the reviewer is trying to say. I fail to see what is unclear or misleading. If anyone knows how to fix the infobox image it would be greatly appreciated, since I cannot figure that out either. Flibirigit (talk) 14:12, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
    • I have inquired at Wikipedia:Help desk for help with the image and asked a couple smarter editors to assist with the hook. Flibirigit (talk) 14:41, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
      • The file was listed as 0×0 pixels so it wasn't displaying properly. I reuploaded it and it seems to be okay now. I also moved the fair use rationale to the licensing. The file page could use a description of the image in the summary section. – Reidgreg (talk) 16:57, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
  • In ice hockey, is it common to refer to someone being lifted up by an opponent and placed somewhere else on the ice as "getting a free ride"? If it is, then I would be willing to withdraw my objection. But I can't find evidence of that. By contrast, see this New York Times article where "getting a free ride" implies being treated easily without being checked. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 15:18, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
  • I think the quote "got many a free ride" is unclear in both the hook and the article (as compared to the source). We generally don't want the hooks to be confusing or misleading (outside of April Fools). It's unclear (a) what "free ride" means and (b) whether "got many" means that Dunn 'received many free rides' or 'gave free rides to many (others)'. In the context of university athletics, I thought a "free ride" meant a full scholarship, and that she somehow arranged these for many athletic students. Others might think this has something to do with a heavy check (ice hockey), that she was a very physical player who sent others flying. What the source means is that she was often picked up and carried by opposing male players during practices. In the 1930s, "free ride" was probably much more associated with transportation (migratory populations, hobos and such). The article should make this clear (the meaning, not the bit about hobos) and I feel an alternative phrasing for the hook is warranted. I also feel there could be another hook about her accomplishments as a sports organizer. – Reidgreg (talk) 15:47, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
    • The following are some ALTs. – Reidgreg (talk) 16:57, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
      • ALT0a: ... that Mary Dunn was often carried out of the way by male opponents during ice hockey practices?Source: [3]
      • ALT0b: ... that male opponents often carried Mary Dunn out of their way during ice hockey practices?Source: [4]
*** ALT1: ... that Mary Dunn organized women's athletics and ice hockey in 1930s Manitoba?
  • I appreciate the suggestion of hooks, but I still do not comprehend what is being said. I will contemplate for several days, maybe a week, then comment when I am ready. Flibirigit (talk) 13:57, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
  • Going off of Reidgreg ALT suggestions: HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 00:01, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
  • ALT0c: ... that Mary Dunn was often carried out of the way by male opponents during ice hockey practices, which she described as a "free ride"?Source: [5]
  • ALT0d: ... that male opponents often gave Mary Dunn a free ride by carrying her of their way during ice hockey practices?
  • ALT2: ... that the Winnipeg Free Press described Mary Dunn as "one of the boys"? Source: [6]
  • I feel like I am burnt out from Wikipedia and have a brain cramp with respect to this nomination. I hope to revisit sometime later this week. Sorry for any inconvenience. Flibirigit (talk) 15:50, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
  • I have contemplated this for a while and feel it is best to remove all instances of "free ride" and to consider other hooks. I appreciate the remainining hooks proposed, but have struck the word "often" from the hockey hooks since the cited source does not say it happened often, just that it happened. I am fine with the other hooks. Flibirigit (talk) 01:10, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
  • (Note: I properly numbered the alts to make it easier for the promoter)
  • The alt hooks here all look good, and the article still meets requirements (length, copyvio, etc). ALT0c works and is more clear @Flibirigit: if you want to include the "free ride" anecdote. The "free ride" bit is an interesting one, and that hook is kind of funny imo. ALT1 and ALT2 also work, although ALT1 is a little dry. All in all, there was only a small with this nom in the first place and Flibirigit has now provided some very good alternative hooks. BuySomeApples (talk) 05:56, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
  • I request that this nomination not be promoted at this time. I feel that mistakes have been made in the review. I am busy in real life and do not have time to go into detail right now. I will come back later to elaborate. Flibirigit (talk) 13:02, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
  • ALT0c is factually incorrect since Dunn herself is not quoted as saying she got a free ride, rather the journalist Jimmy Coo stated it. I have restored the strikethrough. I will propose something else shortly. Flibirigit (talk) 20:38, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
  • ALT3: ... that Mary Dunn was reported to have had "many a free ride" in ice hockey, when men "would just lift her up and dump her elsewhere"? [7]

I have proposed an ALT3 above. I agree that ALT1 is dry and would prefer to use either ALT2 or ALT3. Cheers. Flibirigit (talk) 22:02, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

ALT3 also looks great. Approving ALT3 and ALT2 per the nominator's request. BuySomeApples (talk) 23:45, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
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