Template:Did you know nominations/Marina de Gabaráin
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:35, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
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Marina de Gabaráin
[[File:|140px|Marina de Gabarain as Carmen ]]
Marina de Gabarain as Carmen
... that mezzo-soprano Marina de Gabaráin made her debut as Bizet's Carmen (pictured) in Scotland, and sang her signature role, Rossini's La Cenerentola, first in Glyndebourne?Source: several
- Reviewed: Spilosoma obliqua
Created by Zarzuelauk (talk) and Gerda Arendt (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 14:06, 14 September 2020 (UTC).
New enough, long enough, well referenced and written. QPQ done. Hook is long enough and interesting, picture is used in the article. However, there are a few issues: Ref #2 gives me a dead link (but there is an Internet Archive version, I recommend this is substituted in the article using the relevant parameters of the {{Cite web}} template). It also verifies her role in Carmen, but does not explicitly reference it being her debut role. Ref #3 indeed verifies her role in La Cenerentola, but says nothing about how "she achieved international recognition" in that role. The picture is also not properly licensed: it obviously was not made on 9 September 2020, and given her date of death may very well be under copyright. Even if the work is (proven to be) anonymous, it would have to be published 70 years ago for it to be public domain, and it never would be eligible for Creative Commons as currently tagged, as the photo uploader is not the creator. I would also (not a DYK requirement) recommend removing the "op.cit." and replacing it with the full reference per WP:IBID. On the hook, I would also suggest adding her nationality to it ("...that the Spanish mezzo-soprano...") to heighten the contrast to her beginning her career in Scotland and England. Constantine ✍ 16:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you, Constantine, for the review. For most questions, we'll need Zarzuelauk, but as for "Spanish", I avoided that intentionally, because some from Donostia/San Sebastian would find "Spanish" wrong. I also think that the name is sufficiently un-Scottish. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:35, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
- Perhaps GRuban knows about the image licensing - just helped with another one. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:40, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
- The image seems to be cropped from here https://www.taminoautographs.com/products/de-gabarain-marina-1 (or possibly another copy), it's clearly a publicity photo. If it's from her Carmen performance in 1949, as that page believes, then it's 71 years old, and as a publicity photo it was likely published at that date. I can't prove this, mind. --GRuban (talk) 17:07, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
- Seems very likely to have been cropped from the taminoautographs page - it's cropped just above where the watermark is, and the original image height and width in the EXIF are those of the taminoautographs photo. Here is another copy of the same publicity photo but with different signature. https://www.ebay.com/itm/152767510230 --GRuban (talk) 17:13, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you Constantine for your review. To address your concerns: I don't understand when you say that Ref #2 is a "dead link" - it takes me, at least, direct to the Scottish Opera Archive's page devoted to that Carmen tour, specifically highlighting de Gabaráin's appearance. That it was her stage debut is attested by Sagarmínaga, the "Spanish bible" on these matters. She achieved international recognition in the role of Cenerentola because Glyndebourne at that date (as now) was a leading international venue, and this was a flagship production under Vittorio Gui. The recording she made of the production (at Abbey Road for EMI) had a worldwide distribution, was the first complete recording of the opera, and reviewed throughout the operatic world, as Operadis informs us. Very simply, that production made her famous practically overnight, and launched her entire stage and recording career. Gerda Arendt makes the point about the sensitivity of her Basque/Spanish dual heritage.
- Seems very likely to have been cropped from the taminoautographs page - it's cropped just above where the watermark is, and the original image height and width in the EXIF are those of the taminoautographs photo. Here is another copy of the same publicity photo but with different signature. https://www.ebay.com/itm/152767510230 --GRuban (talk) 17:13, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
- The image seems to be cropped from here https://www.taminoautographs.com/products/de-gabarain-marina-1 (or possibly another copy), it's clearly a publicity photo. If it's from her Carmen performance in 1949, as that page believes, then it's 71 years old, and as a publicity photo it was likely published at that date. I can't prove this, mind. --GRuban (talk) 17:07, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you also GRuban The photograph is not of her stage debut, but has to be a publicity photo from the mid-1950s, when she was singing the title role in Carmen around the world. It is not known which production it portrays, and may well be a studio-posed production. I have tried to verify the photographer's name and copyright, with no success. Thank you again for everyone's input. Zarzuelauk (talk) 09:33, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
- Hi Zarzuelauk! The Ref #2 link gets me to a security warning and then to a 'Site Not Found' message (probably a security certificate malfunction). This means that other users will likely have the same problem. If Sagarmínaga verifies that this was her stage debut, then please add him as a reference for the relevant part, because the archived version of operascotland.org I can see mentions nothing of the sort. Ditto on the 'international recognition' thing; if you can add (and, ideally, cite) the facts you listed as to why this performance and production were important, then fine. Otherwise it is an unverified assertion. It may be famous in certain circles, or 'common sense', but one cannot take necessary prior knowledge as given for our readers, and DYK rules require references for all facts mentioned in the hook. On the image, at this point I'd recommend removing it from the DYK proposal; if it is from the '50s, then it falls under fair use at best, and this is inadmissible for DYK. The tags of the image will have to be changed accordingly, as well. On the 'Spanish', per Gerda Arendt's explanation that is fine. Constantine ✍ 11:25, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you once again Constantine. I note your points, but Marina will have to go on the back-burner for me now - I have some crucial deadlines coming up for articles and liner notes. I will be able to provide some further references to her career once one in particular of the latter is published, early next year - as that's why I found myself researching her career in the first place, and was surprised to find her absent from Wikipedia! Meanwhile, best as you suggest to put DYK on hold. Thank you again, Zarzuelauk (talk) 18:59, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
- Hi Zarzuelauk! The Ref #2 link gets me to a security warning and then to a 'Site Not Found' message (probably a security certificate malfunction). This means that other users will likely have the same problem. If Sagarmínaga verifies that this was her stage debut, then please add him as a reference for the relevant part, because the archived version of operascotland.org I can see mentions nothing of the sort. Ditto on the 'international recognition' thing; if you can add (and, ideally, cite) the facts you listed as to why this performance and production were important, then fine. Otherwise it is an unverified assertion. It may be famous in certain circles, or 'common sense', but one cannot take necessary prior knowledge as given for our readers, and DYK rules require references for all facts mentioned in the hook. On the image, at this point I'd recommend removing it from the DYK proposal; if it is from the '50s, then it falls under fair use at best, and this is inadmissible for DYK. The tags of the image will have to be changed accordingly, as well. On the 'Spanish', per Gerda Arendt's explanation that is fine. Constantine ✍ 11:25, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you also GRuban The photograph is not of her stage debut, but has to be a publicity photo from the mid-1950s, when she was singing the title role in Carmen around the world. It is not known which production it portrays, and may well be a studio-posed production. I have tried to verify the photographer's name and copyright, with no success. Thank you again for everyone's input. Zarzuelauk (talk) 09:33, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
Per article author's comments, placed on hold. I don't know what the cut-off period is for such a process, but the outstanding issues should be easy to fix. Constantine ✍ 17:10, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
- Unless I'm misreading their last post, it seems as if Zarzuelauk is suggesting that the points will not be addressed until "early next year", which of course is months too long for this DYK to be on hold. Sometime in October ought to work, if at all feasible. Gerda Arendt, might you be able to help here? (It is your nomination.) Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:31, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
- I'll look and see if I'm able. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:53, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
- I have nominated the photo for deletion from Wikimedia Commons; it's clearly not eligible to be there based on the comment above from Zarzuelauk. BlueMoonset (talk) 14:33, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
- I looked now. I see ref #2 fine, so find using the archived link not really needed, - it takes much time to load the archived version. The content is as described. I suggest to modify the hook, as the word debut is ambiguous:
- ALT1: ... that mezzo-soprano Marina de Gabaráin appeared as Bizet's Carmen in Scotland, and as Rossini's La Cenerentola in Glyndebourne in 1952, recorded the following year? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:29, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt: just ping me when you are ready for a review :) Constantine ✍ 18:50, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
- Constantine, ping. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:14, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
All right, the new hook is referenced (AGF on Sagarmínaga, the rest is online), so good to go. Constantine ✍ 19:21, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
- Just for explanation: I restored the Operissimo ref, which is identical with Kutsch/Riemens, but online, while the other is not (not that page, sadly). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:24, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
- Constantine, ping. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:14, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt: just ping me when you are ready for a review :) Constantine ✍ 18:50, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
- I'll look and see if I'm able. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:53, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
