Template:Did you know nominations/Magnificat and Nunc dimittis (Gloucester)
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 07:03, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
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Magnificat and Nunc dimittis (Gloucester)
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... that Herbert Howells composed one of 20 settings of Magnificat and Nunc dimittis for Gloucester Catredral (choir pictured) where he had sung as a boy?Source: [1] "...and he could have known none better than Gloucester Cathedral where as a boy he had been an articled pupil of Sir Herbert Brewer"
- Reviewed: Clare Wheatley
Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 12:00, 1 December 2017 (UTC).
- Except that "articled pupil" isn't the same as "chorister", so the hook is factually incorrect. BencherliteTalk 21:54, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- (Sorry, its hard for me to imagine music studies without singing.) Can we say this?
- ALT1:
... that Herbert Howells composed one of 20 settings of Magnificat and Nunc dimittis for Gloucester Catredral (choir pictured) where he had studied with Herbert Brewer as a boy?--Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:45, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
New enough, long enough, hook is fine, Earwig shows no sign of copyvio - AGF on offline sources, neutral, I would like a source for the "Text" section, but that is not essential. Good to go. Aymatth2 (talk) 22:05, 17 December 2017 (UTC)
- Aymatth2 The hook is not fine – it has an obvious typo and "one of 20" doesn't comply with MOS:NUMNOTES. Most problematically, it also implies that there are twenty settings of the Mag and Nunc for Gloucester Cathedral. So it needs some rewording
- ALT2: ... that Herbert Howells composed the Magnificat and Nunc dimittis for Gloucester Cathedral (choir pictured) after learning the organ there as a boy with Herbert Brewer?
- How about that? BencherliteTalk 10:57, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks for the idea, - I was not happy with the wording myself. Thank you also for help with the article. I don't think that it is a surprise that he composed after he learned. How is this?
- ALT3:
... that Herbert Howells composed the Magnificat and Nunc dimittis for Gloucester Cathedral for the church (choir pictured) where he had learned the organ with Herbert Brewer as a boy?--Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:11, 18 December 2017 (UTC)- That solves the 1 of twenty problem and all those settings for the catredral, but I find "learned the organ" awkward. I had an uncle who learned a very unusual set of church bells. He (and only he) understood how they worked and could repair them.
- My question is whether he learned to repair the organ, or to tune it, or just learned how it worked, or what? Aymatth2 (talk) 12:11, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
- I am not the right person to know, with my limited English. When we say the equivalent in German (Er lernte Orgel bei XYZ.), everybody would know that "playing" is meant. I am not familiar enough though if an "articled pupil" - I term I don't know, and know even less now that it was delinked - learns more than playing, - my impression was that it was also theory etc. All these nuances, however, don't play a role in the hook, but should just confirm that he knew the acoustics of the place he wrote for from a formative period in his life on. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:18, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
- I am probably being over-picky. "Learned the organ" would usually be taken to mean "learned to play the organ", but could also mean "learned to play this organ", or perhaps even if he were an apprentice in an instrument factory "learned to build organs" etc. Clearly he was taught to play organs in general and played this one in particular as a boy. I can't suggest a hook. Maybe User:Bencherlite can? Aymatth2 (talk) 12:40, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
- Gerda Arendt, I removed a piped link to "articled clerk" (which starts "An articled clerk is someone who is studying to either be an accountant or lawyer") because it does not explain what an "articled pupil" for a cathedral organist was. In any case, if you want to complain about my removal of that erroneous link, come to my talk page or go to the Herbert Howells talk page, instead of making snide comments here. You should perhaps try reading the Lloyd source that's already in the article:
"This system, with which you may be familiar but which has now virtually died out in our cathedrals, enabled a young musician to receive a thorough grounding in church music and keyboard playing, as well as harmony and counterpoint leading to composition, and the pupil would assist the cathedral organist with his duties."
- As for a revised hook, Aymatth2, happy to help. How about:
- ALT4: ... that Herbert Howells composed the Magnificat and Nunc dimittis for Gloucester Cathedral after having organ lessons there as a boy with Herbert Brewer? BencherliteTalk 12:52, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
- I like the hook, thank you! I don't like that you think I complained, - sorry for saying the wrong way that I didn't know what an articled pupil was. Thank you for finding it in the source, that helped! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:20, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
- Gerda Arendt, I removed a piped link to "articled clerk" (which starts "An articled clerk is someone who is studying to either be an accountant or lawyer") because it does not explain what an "articled pupil" for a cathedral organist was. In any case, if you want to complain about my removal of that erroneous link, come to my talk page or go to the Herbert Howells talk page, instead of making snide comments here. You should perhaps try reading the Lloyd source that's already in the article:
- I am probably being over-picky. "Learned the organ" would usually be taken to mean "learned to play the organ", but could also mean "learned to play this organ", or perhaps even if he were an apprentice in an instrument factory "learned to build organs" etc. Clearly he was taught to play organs in general and played this one in particular as a boy. I can't suggest a hook. Maybe User:Bencherlite can? Aymatth2 (talk) 12:40, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
- I am not the right person to know, with my limited English. When we say the equivalent in German (Er lernte Orgel bei XYZ.), everybody would know that "playing" is meant. I am not familiar enough though if an "articled pupil" - I term I don't know, and know even less now that it was delinked - learns more than playing, - my impression was that it was also theory etc. All these nuances, however, don't play a role in the hook, but should just confirm that he knew the acoustics of the place he wrote for from a formative period in his life on. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:18, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
- Good to go with ALT4. Aymatth2 (talk) 13:43, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
