Template:Did you know nominations/Lord Chunshen

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Rcsprinter (Gimme a message) @ 18:22, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Lord Chunshen

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... ~~that Lord Chunshen, a nobleman who was assassinated in 238 BC, gave Shanghai its nickname, the City of Shen?~~

Reviewed: Sex-selective abortion

Created by Evangeline (talk), Zanhe (talk). Nominated by Zanhe (talk) at 22:34, 27 November 2013 (UTC).

The following has been checked in this review by Matty.007

QPQ taken care of
Article created by Evangeline on 22 November 2013, and has 3182 characters of readable prose
Notable lack of sourcing in the 'Biography' section
Earwig @ Toolserver found no copyvios
Hook is interesting, but not sourced

The issues with sourcing in paragraphs and the hook need fixing. Thanks, Mat ty.007 17:54, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

You're right, the article wasn't yet ready when I nominated it. I was planning to improve it while waiting for a reviewer, but didn't expect it so soon! I've now expanded and revamped the entire article. Please take another look. Thanks, -Zanhe (talk) 23:26, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

It is much better, and I am AGFing on the offline and foreign language references, but the fact that he gave the city the nickname 'The City of Shen' needs a source directly after the claim, per DYK rules. Thanks, Mat ty.007 19:39, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Ref added. I also changed the word "nickname" to "moniker" in the hook, which seems to be more appropriate. -Zanhe (talk) 19:51, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

In my view this is OK, but given the current discussion about the incorrect translation of this, I may have a quick look to see if there is a Chinese speaker who can help me out. Thanks, Mat ty.007 18:12, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

I think you misunderstood my comment. I changed the word from "nickname" to "moniker" to avoid possible negative connotations associated with the word "nickname", not because of "incorrect" translation. I found an English source if it helps, although I haven't added it to the article as the Xinhua source is more authoritative. -Zanhe (talk) 05:56, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

It was not to do with that, there is a bit of a furore on the DYK talk about foreign refs. I suspect it would be OK if you we're a Chinese speaker, are you? Best Mat ty.007 06:53, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Oh I see. Yes, I'm bilingual in English and Chinese. Also, this article is the work of two people, and we kind of already checked each other's work. But I have no problem if you want to have another Chinese speaker verify the translation. -Zanhe (talk) 07:03, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Oh, given that two Chinese speakers have verified it, the English ref is relatively similar, and I haven't tried Google Translate because the sources are offline; and Translate is useless; so I will AGF. Thanks, Mat ty.007 17:12, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Two issues here: the minor one is that "moniker" is slangy and not appropriate for this hook, but far more compelling is that there is no evidence in the article that "Shanghai" is derived from "Shencheng" (city of Shen), the older name in Chunshen's honor. If it's true that Shanghai derives from the other name (rather than Shencheng being an alternate, older name), then this needs to be made more explicit in the article. (The Shanghai article does not support the derivation possibility in its Etymology section.) BlueMoonset (talk) 23:56, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I changed "moniker" back to "nickname" per your suggestion. As for your second point, the hook in no way makes the false claim that the name Shanghai is derived from City of Shen, only that the nickname City of Shen comes from Lord Chunshen. Please read it again. -Zanhe (talk) 00:09, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Well, that's the problem with "moniker": it isn't necessarily a nickname, just a slang term for name, so a primary interpretation of your hook as it was written was that Shanghai was another variant of Shencheng. (There's also a problem with "gave", since Shencheng was derived from his name, not bestowed by him, which is the more typical meaning of "gave".) Finally, is there only one nickname, as "its" implies? If not, I suggest being more specific. Here's my suggested ALT1, which deals with all of the above issues:

ALT1: ... that Lord Chunshen, a nobleman who was assassinated in 238 BC, is the source of Shanghai's nickname "Shencheng", the city of Shen?

This is on my watchlist; no need for further talkbacks. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:34, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

That's substantially the same as the original hook, but better. It's totally fine with me. Thanks for your suggestion. -Zanhe (talk) 00:46, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Since I can't review my own ALT, another reviewer is needed to check it and do the approval step. It should be pretty straightforward. Thanks, Zanhe. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:52, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Both hook facts are present and cited in the article; AGF on foreign-language/offline sources. DoctorKubla (talk) 08:58, 7 December 2013 (UTC)