Template:Did you know nominations/Liebster Jesu, wir sind hier

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 12:52, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Liebster Jesu, wir sind hier

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~~... that "Liebster Jesu, wir sind hier" is a popular hymn for illumination by Tobias Clausnitzer, referring to the darkness of our knowledge and mind?~~ Source: several

Reviewed: Addison E. Southard
Comment: One of these days, there will be an article on the author. It would be interesting to say how the translator, Catherine Winkworth, misses the "dearest" of the address (which seems to be the key word), but how? "Popular" is short for in how many hymnals it appears, more than 100 in German, and even more in English, 135 for that mentioned translation alone.

Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 11:56, 26 April 2020 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook eligibility:

Cited:
Interesting: - ? What is a "hymn for illumination"? This is not in the hook nor the article. Indeed, why this hymn noteworthy? Why is any hymn noteworthy?

Corrected. Now

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QPQ: Done.

Overall: This is my very first DYK review, so I'm sure I'm doing it wrong. As a member of the broad audience, though, I'm not sure how this hook is interesting...or even what it means. Please illuminate me. (Goodness, that sounds horribly rude and snarky -- please impute no ill will! ^^;;;) Neopeius (talk) 00:39, 21 May 2020 (UTC) Gerda Arendt --Neopeius (talk) 00:40, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for looking, and for being brave, - I mean, for your first review you could have picked a plant with sources in English. What I like about illumination is its broad meaning which I hoped might be interesting for the "broad audience", more than some theological idea. "We are here, ready to listen, but need illumination to understand what we hear" is more or less what it says, and nothing much changed since that was written, written long ago, a broad concept true for children and adults. - Perhaps compare my song of defiance (Trotz). - For noteworthyness, perhaps read List of hymns by Martin Luther, - his hymns are the Reformation in a nutshell, + changing culture by replacing the Latin used until then by the local language, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:19, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

I understand. What about something like this: "DYK Liebster Jesu, wir sind hier ("Beloved Jesus, we are here"), a Christian hymn dealing with the darkness of our knowledge and mind, is still a popular hymn for illumination four centuries after its creation by Tobias Clausnitzer?" I know it's a bit longer, but it's a lot hookier ("gee! I wonder why it's still popular after so long?" -- of course, then the article could use some expansion in its history to answer that question. :) ) Gerda Arendt --Neopeius (talk) 17:29, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for understanding and the offer, but you should not make a hook, or you can't approve it. It has a few features I am not so happy with, 1) the translation - any translation - it should be "dearest", not "beloved", and the popular English version don't have any, 2) saying how old is, which may make readers turn away, 3) "dealing with darkness ..." sounds as if that was the key, but is just the explanation of why illumination is needed, because our mind is so limited, 4) it's not at all unusual that Lutheran hymns are popular after even 500 years, just look at "A mighty fortress", so nothing specific for this hymn, 5) too long. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:43, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your cordial and expansive reply. :) I guessed on the "dearest" -- I don't speak German (hence the suggestion of translation). Point 4 may be obvious to you, but not to everyone, which I is why I suggested expansion; you are clearly extremely well-versed in these subjects and things that seem obvious to you are not to others (I have the same issue with space technology!) Point 5 might be remedied by simply dropping Point 3, which does not seem vital. The age of the hymn is particularly interesting to me, and I suspect it would be to others.

At this point, what is procedure? Are you interested in modifying your hook in any way? If so, I'm happy to review again. If not, do we bring in others? Gerda Arendt --Neopeius (talk) 23:40, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

By the way, I certainly do not have qualms with your not wanting to use my hook as is, but in reference to your comment "you should not make a hook, or you can't approve it," per the reviewing guide, "Nominators are encouraged to work with reviewers to come up with hooks that meet the standards of the DYK process, and new alternate hooks can be proposed by anyone (nominator, reviewer, other third party) in an effort to produce at least one viable hook." (italics added). I just wanted to dispel any misapprehensions, especially as you are also a reviewer and you should feel free to propose alternate hooks as part of the review process in your own reviews. :) --Neopeius (talk) 03:51, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for also taking the time to explain. If you go to the general DYK talk, you'll see that you are not alone thinking that my hooks are too specialized. and the "broad readership" will not understand. Let me give an analogy: Writing about an opera singer, I want to say something about that person's specific ability to portrait characters on stage by singing and acting, while for the broad readership, it might be new that opera singers even exist. Do you understand my problem? I thought in this case, I found enough of common ground (limited human mind in need of illumination) that is not in any hymn but this one.

ALT1: ~~... that "Liebster Jesu, wir sind hier" (Dearest Jesus, we are here) is a popular hymn, praying for illumination because human knowledge and mind are limited?~~

ALT2: ~~... that lines from the hymn for illumination "Liebster Jesu, wir sind hier" were translated as ""All our knowledge, sense, and sight lie in deepest darkness shrouded*"~~

ALT3: ... that the hymn "Liebster Jesu, wir sind hier", a prayer for illumination because the human mind is "shrouded in darkness", became popular in English as "Blessed Jesus, at your word"?

For starters. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:07, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Hello, Gerda! Thank you for composing many alternates. I don't think it's an issue of the hooks being specialized but that they're missing that spark that will connect them to the broad readership, one of the stated (indeed, the primary -- it's the only one in bold) requirements of DYK. Of these new ones, I like ALT3 the best. It does a much better job of incorporating the concepts of illumination and "shroud in darkness" (in the original hook, the second clause doesn't really go anywhere -- also, the clever way in which you've now set it off with quotes makes it clear that it is not you, the DYK writer, interpreting the human condition, but rather an integral part of the hymn itself) and by explaining how the hymn is known in English, makes it relatable to the English-speaking audience (which is who will be reading the EN Wikipedia :) )

I would just add "Lutheran" to ALT3 to fix it in time and provenance. Otherwise, it's not clear if the hymn be modern or vintage. So:

... that the Lutheran hymn "Liebster Jesu, wir sind hier", a prayer for illumination because the human mind is "shrouded in darkness", became popular in English as "Blessed Jesus, at your word"?

This hook, while on the longer side, is still under the 200 character limit, and I would happily approve it, grateful for such a pleasant introduction to the DYK process. :) Gerda Arendt --Neopeius (talk) 13:34, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

The hook is fine, only it says nothing about time, just provenance. Striking the others, to avoid a "wrong" hook to be moved to the preparation areas. It was a pleasure. I have a hook on the Main page right now, DYK? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:36, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Gerda Arendt Hahaha! I did not know. Congratulations on your Kristjánsson DYK! While it's true that the phrase "Lutheran Hymn" does not strictly connote an era, it does suggest Bach and prior given that's when the vast majority of them were written. It's enough to connote age within the character limit, hence my suggestion. Thanks again for the fun exchange! --Neopeius (talk) 23:17, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, it's great to feel understood! I leave it to the prep builder, just saying that the hymn is in today's Catholic hymnal also, and getting sung (while that hymnal contains many hymns that never get sung ;) ), - Lutheran was the origin but it became broader. It's fine to have Lutheran, though. You are always welcome with hook wording problems in nominations where I got stuck! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:27, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Hi, I came by to promote this. @Neopeius: although there is a 200-character limit to hooks, ideally hooks should be shorter and snappier. As one of those individuals that Gerda mentioned who know nothing about music, I prefer the version without the word "Lutheran". The last paragraph under Text and Melody, about Bach's version, needs a cite per Rule D2. Yoninah (talk) 22:41, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for looking, busy today (real life) but will eventually search for the cite. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:55, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

In a moment in-between, I added 3 cites for the settings. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:23, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you! Restoring tick per Neopeius' review. Yoninah (talk) 12:50, 24 May 2020 (UTC)