Template:Did you know nominations/Keyboard Sonata No. 20 (Haydn)
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Fuebaey (talk) 14:51, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
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Keyboard Sonata No. 33 (Haydn)
[edit]... that the Keyboard Sonata No. 33 has been called Haydn's Appassionata, alluding to Beethoven's later passionate piano sonata?
- Reviewed: Dolores (Ziegfeld girl)
- Comment: Beethoven's sonata intentionally linked as the redirect, for "alluding".
Created by Syek88 (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 12:08, 2 December 2014 (UTC).
I think we need a new hook. I'm sorry report, but there is no mention whatsoever of Beethoven in the cited reference. How are we to know what 'Appassionata' the musicologist is referring to? This may be WP:OR. —Gaff ταλκ 04:56, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- There is no mention of Beethoven, because his sonata Appassionata is so well known. We could have a new hook but I am afraid that it would be more for the music specialists only, while most readers could associate "passionate" even if they never heard Beethoven's music. It was the most striking fact in the article I could find: that the work was compared to something written much later and of that quality. Help? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:39, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Hello. I wrote this page and so I should probably try to answer Gaff's question, "How are we to know what 'Appassionata' the musicologist is referring to?" I suppose that I exercised a degree of licence when writing the sentence that linked the term "Haydn's Appassionata" to the Beethoven Op. 57. I'm sorry if this contravened Wikipedia rules, but I think it was justified. In the context of piano sonatas, there simply is no other Appassionata. Richard Wigmore could only have been speaking of Beethoven's Opus 57. Bear in mind that he was writing for an audience at least moderately familiar with music of the period. For this audience, he did not need to explain the term "Haydn's Appassionata", because the audience would have known what he was talking about. In summary, I exercised no more licence in linking "Haydn's Appassionata" to Beethoven's Op. 57 than one would in linking "Pope" and "Catholic". But if that is not sufficient, I happened to add another sentence to the page yesterday, quoting a Gramophone Magazine review which suggests that Haydn's Hob. XVI/20 might be the "first great sonata for the piano by anybody". That could be another "striking fact", or at least a "striking opinion" (I imagine that the somewhat novel tripartite structure of the first movement's exposition might only be "striking" to some). Apologies for the number of words I've used here. This is new to me. Syek88 (talk) 10:37, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- There is no mention of Beethoven, because his sonata Appassionata is so well known. We could have a new hook but I am afraid that it would be more for the music specialists only, while most readers could associate "passionate" even if they never heard Beethoven's music. It was the most striking fact in the article I could find: that the work was compared to something written much later and of that quality. Help? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:39, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you for explaining in detail what I could only hint at. I pick up your idea for an alternative, but confess that I like the other better, as a bit more passionate ;)
ALT1: ... that Joseph Haydn's Keyboard Sonata No. 33 in C minor might be the "first great sonata for the piano by anybody"?--Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:21, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
ALT1 Looks good. I too prefer the original hook, but am concerned about WP:OR. I agree that it is like debating if it is acceptable to point out that the Mona Lisa was painted by da Vinci. I will go ahead and approve the article and ask the editor or admin doing the prep make the final call. —Gaff ταλκ 16:24, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- The article was moved to Piano Sonata Hob. XVI/20. I adjusted the technical field, but we need to think about the hooks. - I think we need to keep "keyboard" because it was not "piano only"?
- ALT2: ... that a keyboard sonata in C minor by Joseph Haydn might be the "first great sonata for the piano by anybody"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:21, 3 December 2014 (UTC) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:42, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, had to adjust the history, as the former article name was made a redirect, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:01, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- DYK "that a keyboard sonata" or DYK "that the keyboard sonata" —Gaff ταλκ 15:34, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt: Care to clarify the hook? Fuebaey (talk) 13:37, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
- Please don't ask me non-native tricky language questions ;) - I think "the" sounds as if there's only one, while "a" says "one of the several he wrote". I may be wrong. - I hesitate to mention the Hob. No., because that was assigned only later, and think C minor is better known as a key for tragic works than "Hob." anyway. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:43, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt: Care to clarify the hook? Fuebaey (talk) 13:37, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
- DYK "that a keyboard sonata" or DYK "that the keyboard sonata" —Gaff ταλκ 15:34, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, had to adjust the history, as the former article name was made a redirect, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:01, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- ALT2: ... that a keyboard sonata in C minor by Joseph Haydn might be the "first great sonata for the piano by anybody"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:21, 3 December 2014 (UTC) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:42, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- The article was moved to Piano Sonata Hob. XVI/20. I adjusted the technical field, but we need to think about the hooks. - I think we need to keep "keyboard" because it was not "piano only"?
- @Gaff: Do you mind rechecking those alt hooks? Fuebaey (talk) 11:27, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
- I struck the original hook as I think we all agree that the ambiguous numbering system is not something we want to make known. Here it comes in two versions, one with Beethoven, one without, which I think also works because even people who don't know the nickname of Beethoven's work will associate something with "passionate":
- ALT3: ... that a keyboard sonata in C minor (beginning pictured) has been called Haydn's Appassionata, alluding to Beethoven's later passionate piano sonata??
- ALT4: * ... that Joseph Haydn's keyboard sonata in C minor (beginning pictured) has been called his Appassionata?
- ALT5: ... that Joseph Haydn's keyboard sonata in C minor (beginning pictured) might be the "first great sonata for the piano by anybody"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:40, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
- -- I much prefer ALT4, but all meet the criteria. (I added the wikilink to Appasionata). I would not link to Haydn, since the piece of music already does and it clutters the hook. Maybe drop the (beginning pictured) in favor of simply (pictured), but will leave it up to the compiler to select the ALT and option of the picture. The article meets other criteria: new enough, long enough, each paragraph reliably sourced, QPQ checks out. The image probably qualifies as Public Domain, since the music is so old, but has been tagged with CC 3.0 (which is still okay). So, at long last, GTG! Gaff (talk) 17:44, 4 January 2015 (UTC)