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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by reviewer, closed by Theleekycauldron talk 20:11, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

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Katja Paryla

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Katja Paryla in 1980
Katja Paryla in 1980
Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 2108 past nominations.

Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:49, 14 June 2024 (UTC).

  • Suggesting some alternate hooks for the benefit of the reviewer:
    ALT1 ... that German theatre actress Katja Paryla (pictured) studied fashion prior to starting her acting career?
    ALT2 ... that one review of Katja Paryla's (pictured) acting described her as having a "powerful and sensual presence with a great sense of comedy?"
    Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:46, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
    ALT1 will not get my consent. Here we have the woman who was at her prime the leading stage actress of the GDR, and that hook doesn't give her any place nor time in history. ALT2: it's not "one review", but in the obituary by the then chief of the German Academy of the Arts. It's again too low-key for my taste. For the benefit of a reviewer. The quote is good, but looses in translation (and omits "beautiful"). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:42, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
Gerda, there have been multiple discussions, as well as comments from several editors (not just myself), that you need to move away from the style of hook that ALT0 does. The "Performer performed X role" style has consistently resulted in among our worst-performing hooks and has been the object of concern for years not just by myself but by others. If your point is that she was the leading stage actress in the East Germany, that might actually work better as a hook if a source can be found for it and it be added to the article. ALT0 is far too specialist and will appeal to very few readers other than yourself. It's an issue that has repeatedly been brought up in your nominations and at WT:DYK and it would be in DYK's best interest to follow that advice and move away from it. We do not have to go with ALT1 or ALT2 if you do not want, but ALT0 should be a non-starter. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:47, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
Remember that the change to WP:DYKINT that requires hooks to be "perceived as unusual or intriguing by readers with no special knowledge or interest" from the original "interesting to a broad audience" wording was a result of one of your own nominations. In the RfC that resulted in it you even voiced your support for it. ALT0 simply does not meet the guidelines (it does not appeal to non-specialist audiences and requires knowledge that either most readers do not have, or the importance of the hook fact is not obvious or clear) and thus should be rejected. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
And then you struck ALT0. I reverted that part. For the benefit of the reviewer. Better no DYK than saying what she studied before she became great without saying how great she became. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:47, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
ALT0 simply does not meet WP:DYKINT. It is acceptable to strike hooks that are unsuitable for DYK if they do not meet guidelines and that is the case here. I have restruck the hook: if you want that particular angle, you will need to propose a different wording. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:06, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
ps: We could instead of the roles in ALT0 say that her repertoire spanned from Greek tragedy via German classical drame to 20th century expressionist drama, but that would not only be longer than the three roles saying the same, but also less precise. These three pieces were a series, but I didn't find room to say that also. The character of Medea, a mother who kills her children, is widely known, or am I mistaken? Saying that Paryla played such a character well says more about her abilities than "doing her job". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:54, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
  • Might as well give this a review. The article is new enough, adequately sourced, and free from close paraphrasing. Everything is adequately sourced; with regards to ALT0, the source is German, but I was able to verify the information with Google Translate. The source for ALT0 is the Akademie der Künste which she was a part of so it's a primary source; however per WP:PRIMARY it should be acceptable here as there is no reason to doubt its reliability and it's not making extraordinary claims. Still waiting on a QPQ.
QPQ aside, the article itself is suitable for DYK in terms of meeting the technical requirements. The issue is that that ALT0 as currently written simply does not meet WP:DYKINT. It does not matter if the idea is to highlight her achievements or discuss her roles. In the end, that guideline states that a hook must be interesting to non-specialist audiences, and that hook simply does not meet the guideline as it is reliant on information or context that the majority of readers do not get (who is Lang, why is he important, what is the significance of the Deutsches Theater Berlin?)
The nominator has declined to propose non-specialist hooks or endorse other hook proposals, saying she would prefer "no DYK than saying what she studied before she became great without saying how great she became." As such, the nomination is marked for closure per lack of a suitable hook, unless a hook that meets DYKINT can be proposed. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:03, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
In the interest of the nom not being closed just yet, I am offering a compromise here that still focuses on the Deutsches Theater Berlin aspect while highlighting an aspect that may not need reliance on familiarity with classical music or performances.
ALT3 ... that Katja Paryla (pictured) often played leading roles at Deutsches Theater Berlin with Alexander Lang, who became her partner and the father of her son?
I personally do not think it is the best angle here and I have some reservations about the "leading roles at the Deutsches Theater Berlin" angle, but if we have to go with that angle, this is the best option I can think of. Rather than highlighting her roles specifically, it is instead highlighting the personal relationship between Parlya and Lang. More eyes might be interested in an actress being directed by her partner/husband/equivalent than being overwhelmed with roles. The other facts are still probably a better option, but ALT3 would probably be preferrable to ALT0 or at least be more likely to meet WP:DYKINT. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:12, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
My memory must be faulty, recalling that you said you'd review my nominations only after weeks when nobody else does. Paryla is intended to be one of my GA noms in June for Women in Green. It needs more content which will come but not today. Patience please. - I read further about the trilogy of passions (Trilogie der Leidenschaften), thinking about feeding trivia interests more, but only two of the plays were part of it, and the third has no article yet, and she didn't play in it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:45, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
ALT2a ... that an obituary of actress Katja Paryla (pictured) described her as, "a beautiful, powerful and sensual presence with a great sense of comedy?"
ALT2b ... that actress Katja Paryla (pictured) was said to be, "a beautiful, powerful and sensual presence with a great sense of comedy?" Storye book (talk) 17:15, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
  • I'm fine with ALT2a/ALT2b so I've struck my original ALT2. As Storye book and I both proposed hooks/introduced hook facts, a new independent reviewer will need to give final approval. For reference, the hooks for consideration are ALT1, ALT2a, ALT2b, and ALT3 (although given the choice between ALT2a and ALT2b I would prefer the former given it gives attribution); ALT0 and ALT2 are struck. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 08:39, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
  • It's been more than a week since Gerda was reminded to provide a QPQ, a reminder she presumably read – and unless my memory is faulty, she's been around long enough to know full well that After one week, and a reminder to the nominator, a nomination may be closed as "incomplete." As such, I'll be closing this without action. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 20:11, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
    • I am donating this QPQ: Nandipha Magudumana. Why was I not informed? I've always got QPQs to donate. Please revive this nomination. Storye book (talk) 08:39, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
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