Template:Did you know nominations/Kathrin Göring

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 07:20, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Kathrin Göring

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~~... that mezzo-soprano Kathrin Göring portrayed both Wotan's wife Fricka and Wotan's extramarital daughter Waltraute in Der Ring in Minden, with dramatic intensity?~~ Source: several

Reviewed: The Book of Gutsy Women

Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 12:59, 7 October 2019 (UTC).

What's an "extramarital daughter"? Do you mean a daughter born out of wedlock? Yoninah (talk) 23:13, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

sometimes English is really poor, - is there no one-word phrase for the child a man has from a woman who is not his wife? I found it kind of quirky, but it it can't be put elegantly we perhaps drop it and just mention the characters' names? - As the two appear in the same Die Walküre, the singer appeared for the curtain call in her valkyrie outfit, but then was given her goddess fur coat, - can you word that, perhaps? She was Fricka only in Das Rheingold and Waltraute only in Götterdämmerung. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:08, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

A single, reasonably neutral word for "born out of wedlock" is illegitimate. You could say "Wotan's wife and illegitimate daughter" and it would be clear. RebeccaGreen (talk) 16:22, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Learning, thank you!

ALT1: ... ~~that mezzo-soprano Kathrin Göring portrayed with dramatic intensity both Wotan's wife Fricka and Wotan's illegitimate daughter Waltraute in Der Ring in Minden?~~ --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:47, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes, ALT1 is a better hook. Here is a full review: New enough, long enough, neutrally written, adequately referenced. Unable to check for close paraphrasing as sources are foreign-language. However, the hook fact about Wotan doesn't appear in the article, nor the part about Waltraute being illegitimate. QPQ done. Yoninah (talk) 11:06, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

I tried to make it more interesting for our general public, and a bit quirky, but really would not like to open the can of worms to explain the relationship of operatic characters in singers' articles. There's a roles list in every decent opera article which has such things. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:28, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

In this case Die Walküre. Sigh, for Brünnhilde, it says that the mother is Erda, but the mother of the other valkyries is not Fricka. Anyway, this may be too complex to be used.

ALT2a: ... ~~that mezzo-soprano Kathrin Göring portrayed with dramatic intensity both Wotan's wife Fricka and the valkyrie Waltraute in Der Ring in Minden?~~ --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:35, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

I think ALT2 is interesting, especially with that unusual word "valkyries". But again, none of this is mentioned in the article. Yoninah (talk) 13:15, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

... because it's the same can of worms. In a article about an actor playing Romeo, would you request an explanation and ref for Juliette being his beloved?

ALT2b: ~~... that mezzo-soprano Kathrin Göring portrayed with dramatic intensity both Fricka and the Waltraute in Der Ring in Minden, which appear both in Die Walküre?~~ --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:41, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt and Yoninah: I have made a few edits to the article (adding short descriptions like 'goddess' and 'valkyrie' before the names of the roles), and a bit of other info too. I'm afraid I'm going to suggest another hook, as I think it is very interesting that not only has Göring sung the Wagner roles, several times, but she has also sung in the first recording of a piece that had been thought lost for many years.

ALT3: ... that mezzo-soprano Kathrin Göring, who has sung the goddess Fricka and the valkyrie Waltraute in Wagner's Ring Cycle, also sang in the first recording of Maderna's Requiem, long believed lost?

That's 192 characters. We could leave out 'mezzo-soprano' or 'goddess' and 'valkyrie' (or alternatively Fricka and Waltraute) to make it a bit shorter. (The Ring Cycle is the most common way of referring to Wagner's work in English - even just The Ring, sometimes.) RebeccaGreen (talk) 14:29, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

ALT3a: ~~... that mezzo-soprano Kathrin Göring, sang in the first recording of Maderna's long believed lost Requiem?~~ Bruno Maderna. "Requiem". Presto Classical.

Thanks for you work and offer. Today's hook has "Ring cycle", tomorrow's the same, - let's not confuse readers. I asked an expert. I'd prefer the full name in this case. I'd rather not drop mezzo-soprano, we need Fricka as there ae many goddesses in the work, and Waltraute, as there are many valkyries, and Waltraute is a major one, with her own scene in Götterdämmerung. What I miss in ALT3 is the cute fact, that both characters appear in Die Walküre. I don't need the Requiem, which doesn't even have an article (yet). If Requiem, say premiere, not first recording. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:41, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

OK, if you don't like it, we'll forget it. It wasn't the first performance of the Requiem, just the first German performance - but it was the first recording. I have made some minor tweaks to ALT2b, but it still sounds awkward to me, and I can't think how to make it sound better. I'll try:

ALT2c: ... ~~that mezzo-soprano Kathrin Göring portrayed Fricka and Waltraute, who both appear in Die Walküre, with dramatic intensity in Der Ring in Minden?~~

I think that is more natural ordering for English - but, the article describes only one role as having 'dramatic intensity': "called her scene warning Brünnhilde in Götterdämmerung a musical highlight with intense dramatic acting", so saying that she portrayed them both with dramatic intensity is not currently supported by the article or the source. RebeccaGreen (talk) 16:00, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

You are right as always, but can you imagine a singer performing one role with dramatic intensity and the other not. I saw her as Fricka and it was chillingly intense. May find a source but will go out for the day. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:07, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

And I will go to bed - it's very late. As we both know, personal experience and what we think are not acceptable sources here, so ... if you can find a source, that would be great. RebeccaGreen (talk) 16:46, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Well, I think an abundance of translations of what critics say wouldn't be good for the article.

ALT2d: ... that Kathrin Göring portrayed both Fricka and Waltraute in Der Ring in Minden, and her scene in Götterdämmerung was named a highlight, noting her dramatic mezzo-soprano and intense acting? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:36, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

I think 3a is a good hook. --evrik ^(talk) 20:04, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Only you worded it, with my signature under it, and can't approve your own hook. I will write about the Requiem, but not now with a Totentanz and another death piece and a Requiem waiting. She is a dramatic opera performer, - please don't put her in a Requiem only corner. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:43, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Yup, I worded it. I also worked on the article, just to get this nthrough for you. ;-) --evrik ^(talk) 18:32, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Approving ALT2d, the nominator's preferred hook, which appears and is sourced in the article. Full review per Yoninah. I have also struck the hooks which are either inaccurate or disliked by the nominator. (Sorry, Gerda Arendt, I was away on a work trip and had limited/no reception. And apologies, evrik, I also thought that ALT3a was interesting, but I have struck it, as Gerda did not like it, and as an opera expert has a clearer idea of what distinguishes opera singers.) RebeccaGreen (talk) 12:37, 22 November 2019 (UTC)