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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:43, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Kateryna Kasper

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  • Reviewed: Luang Por Dattajivo
  • Comment: Quite exceptional that Kupfer still works! - The opera has a different name than in our article because he placed the action in a different time, returning to the work's first title.

Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 21:44, 15 June 2018 (UTC).

  • New enough, long enough, neutrally written. As all sources are foreign-language, unable to check for close paraphrasing. Foreign-language hook refs AGF and cited inline. I fixed the link to the opera here and in the article. QPQ done. Good to go. Yoninah (talk) 23:57, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
  • @Gerda Arendt: Hello, I came to promote this, but I don't really see how her studying in Ukraine and Germany ties in to the rest of the hook. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 12:01, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
I am afraid I don't understand the question. It says where her roots are, for a bit of background. One critic noted (not in the article) that she had no problems with the (mostly Russian) language. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:10, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
@Gerda Arendt: I mean, while it does give her background, it doesn't really flow well with the rest of the hook. It seems out of place since the focus appears to be on her role as Antonida. Why not simply something like "that soprano Kateryna Kasper appeared as Antonida..."? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 13:13, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
Why? To give some background, explain her name. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:53, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
@Gerda Arendt: If that's the case, simply introducing her as "Ukrainian soprano Kateryna Kasper..." might work better. The part about her studying in Germany doesn't really seem to be relevant to the hook considering the focus on her role as Antonida. A possible solution to this is to propose an alternate hook which focuses on just that: her studying in both her native Ukraine as well as in Germany, though I'm aware you're usually hesitant to propose more than one hook. In any case, the current hook that's proposed seems too wordy and could probably be made tighter. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 14:06, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
No, because then you would assume she's a Ukrainian soprano working there. Usually I don't even mention any nationality, because I don't think it defines a person. - Studying isn't as worth mentioning as performing. I was urged not to mention the Frankfurt Opera in every other hook (but that's where I mostly go), so thought "Germany" is broader. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:44, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
Sorry, not happy. Why mention Frankfurt, but not Ukraine? (And if, with a link, please.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:04, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
@Gerda Arendt: Added Ukrainian. Added link for Frankfurt Opera.
Look, I liked the original hook. Narutolovehinata5 we have so many opera hooks, we have to say different things for them. I don't understand why the original hook wasn't succinct enough. Yoninah (talk) 22:34, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
Thank you for trying, but I still like the original better. "has appeared" indicates that the opera is still on the program. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:39, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
As I mentioned before, my issue was not with the content or subject, but with the words "who studied in Ukraine and Germany", which didn't really seem to go well with the rest of the hook. The new proposal is a lot better: I know we have a lot of Frankfurt Opera hooks lately, but at least this ties in with the Antonida role, as opposed to the old Ukraine/Germany thing. Restoring hook for ALT1. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 22:43, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
  • @Narutolovehinata5: there is way too much going on in ALT1, no one is going to click on it, and Gerda doesn't like it. Can we please go back to the original hook? Yoninah (talk) 22:54, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
I probably would at this point, but I really don't want this to end up at WP:ERRORS, so I'd like some feedback first from The Rambling Man and Khajidha as they commented on a similar hook by Gerda a few days ago. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 22:56, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
It's not an error that she studied in Ukraine and Germany, so was influenced by East and West, and well equipped to sing a Russian character in a German Opera House, staged by a director who was an East Berlin legend. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:16, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
I still think the original is too cluttered. There is no indication of how where she studied ties into anything. And "has appeared" would actually indicate that the opera is not currently on the program, or at least that she is no longer in the role. I would vote for the simpler " ... that soprano Kateryna Kasper has appeared as Antonida in Glinka's opera staged by Harry Kupfer?"--Khajidha (talk) 02:07, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
Once upon a time, the author's wishes were worth more, sigh. Nobody knows Antonida. The opera was (intentionally) unspecific. That hook is good for nothing for someone not knowing Kupfer. The hook was made to make him known, did you know?
ALT3: ... that Ukrainian soprano Kateryna Kasper appeared as Antonida in Glinka's Iwan Sussanin staged by Harry Kupfer? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:20, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
I fail to see how the singer's background could possibly be relevant to making him known. --Khajidha (talk) 14:27, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
I didn't say it would. I think a woman between Ukraine and Germany is interesting, - difficult life guaranteed, "broad audience" will grasp that. All else is specialty. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:10, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
1) If that is what we are supposed to find interesting, then why mention the rest? Make it about her background or make it about opera, trying to shoehorn both in there makes for clunky writing. 2) You literally said that the hook was "to make him known", so how does her background do that? --Khajidha (talk) 15:16, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
I have no time for this. We have the original which I like, and someone can approve the other(s). I have articles to write. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:30, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

For me, the only really interesting thing in the whole article which might appeal to a "broad audience" is something around the cat-like sounds when suffering from toothache quote. Everything else is very much run-of-the-mill stuff. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:35, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

But that opera has already a DYK. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:11, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
ps: that fact was added after nomination and approval. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:12, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
Well, my feelings still stand, it's the only thing in the article that would be of interest to a "broad audience". The Rambling Man (talk) 15:18, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
The opera (with the switches of gender and age) is on the main page now. I'm still licking my wounds from the "not one critic's voice" (Michael Hofstetter, resolved just now after hours of extra work), in which category the cat-like sounds would fall. Sorry, tired of that sort of thing. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:44, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
  • I've been watching this discussion and am also tired of it. When Gerda writes about opera, she wants to educate readers, not pander to the peanut gallery with ridiculous hooks like cat-like sounds when suffering from toothache. TRM, that kind of emphasis will put more fuel in the guns of those who want to do away with DYK for being lightweight and silly. Since Gerda likes to talk about performances, how about:
  • ALT4: ... that Kateryna Kasper of the Frankfurt Opera has sung roles as varied as Tigrane in Handel's Radamisto, Gretel in Humperdinck's Hänsel und Gretel, and the little Chinese in Eötvös' Der goldene Drache? Yoninah (talk) 17:20, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
I thought I leaned my lesson, to mention only one. Forgive me for mentioning the one which brought her to my attention, and where she sparkled with Italian-like virtuoso singing (says this critic). The other one I saw (later, again after the original hook was already approved) was Valencienne in Die lustige Witwe ("Ich bin eine anständge Frau") which would make a nice contrast ;) - I know nothing about Tigrane (and don't like the infobox-less state with old Handel in all Handel operas), Gretel - sorry - is boring. She sure has talent for both comic and tragic. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:38, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
@Gerda Arendt: so please tell me the 2 or 3 "varied roles" you'd like to highlight, and I'll try to make it fit into 200 characters. Yoninah (talk) 21:14, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
Antonida and Valencienne, the latter will have to be in the article first. Not today ;) - No rush, we have several singers that will need to be spread out. - With the google-doodle hype around Kurt Masur, I learned that Cornelia Wulkopf appeared in his last concert in the GDR, the day before German unification, Beethoven's Ninth, of course, - too late. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:36, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
Finally getting to it, I found a nice detailed review of the premiere, - only: Kasper was sick that day. Will think again. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:58, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
ok, think I found something --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:06, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
ALT5: ... that Ukrainian soprano Kateryna Kasper appeared in Los Angeles as Belinda in Purcell's Dido and Aeneas, staged by Barrie Kosky, and in Frankfurt as Antonida in Glinka's Iwan Sussanin, staged by Harry Kupfer?
Yoninah, Narutolovehinata5, for something around the globe, not explicitly mentioning that she sang one role in English and one in Russian, nor that one stage dirctor (remember, the first Jewish stage director in Bayreuth) is sort of a grand-pupil of the other, - cute for those who know such things. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:32, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
  • Thank you, Gerda, for keeping at it. ALT5 is worldly and hooky. Hook refs verified/AGF and cited inline. The hook, however, is over 200 char. Do we need to mention Kosky? Yoninah (talk) 22:45, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
No, but we could also drop Ukrainian soprano, - those who know will recognize Belinda as a soprano role, and the others may not care ;) - I sort of like the symmetry ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:50, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
OK. ALT5 good to go. Yoninah (talk) 23:51, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
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