Template:Did you know nominations/John Henry Devereux

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by PFHLai (talk) 04:49, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

John Henry Devereux

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• ... that while John Henry Devereux was an Irish immigrant working as a plasterer he eventually became a noted architect of public buildings and synagogues in South Carolina's Lowcountry.
  

I withdraw my original hook as I believe Alt1 to be a better and more interesting choice.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 14:09, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Reference: U.S. General Services Administration

• Reviewed: Drive (The X-Files) and Reviewed Fotos Y Recuerdos

• Created/expanded by Carptrash (talk), 7&6=thirteen (talk), Doug Coldwell (talk). Note: there are 3 co-creators. Nominated by Doug Coldwell (talk) at 15:13, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

• Hook might include also: "and designed St. Matthew's German Evangelical Lutheran Church the tallest building for 101 years in South Carolina." 7&6=thirteen (☎) 19:29, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
• We could then use Alt1. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 19:34, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

St Matthews

• Alt1: ... that Irish immigrant plasterer John Henry Devereux became a noted architect of public buildings and churches in South Carolina, designing a church that was the state's tallest building for 101 years (pictured)?

Here are sources for my suggested hook expansion as in the article under sub-header St Matthew's German Lutheran Church.

The church's steeple is the tallest in South Carolina, and was the tallest building for 101 years.

I concur with Doug. We have noodled up another proposal, under 200 characters, which was submitted as Alt1. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 22:55, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

• I see writing issues. The Alt hook already has a grammatical problem: "making a church - state's tallest building of 101 years" is not correct. The article has issues as well. What I removed here, for instance, shouldn't have been in the article. Note also the first sentence of the "20 South Battery" section--that's a dangling modifier that I'm not sure how to fix. I'm confused by the referencing system as well: books and magazines and websites are cited in the "Endnotes" and in the "References" sections--first I thought they were mixed up, but now it seems that all the sources with all their bibliographic information in the Endnotes are repeated in the References. I don't understand the duplication. Then, some of the notes in the Endnotes contain irrelevant information like "(hardcover)". And look at note 9 and note 24--the exact same book, cited fully including ISBN. It's a pretty interesting and complete article, but this needs work. Drmies (talk) 04:56, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

I believe the citation and writing issues have been corrected. Thanks. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 12:31, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

The hook now is grammatically correct.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 13:08, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

And it is 198 characters. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 13:12, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

• Doug, I have made some more copy edits, but it's dinner time. I had a quick look at the citations, where I still see books cited completely both in the endnotes and in the references. It's a format that I don't quite understand. I think maybe you should ask someone else, some nicer person. The hook is still too long (it's 209--was "pictured" counted?) but that's easily taken care of by trimming something ("plasterer" for instance). The sourcing of the hook seems fine. Maybe Casliber or some other DYK regular can have a quick look and OK it--maybe I'm just too picky, and I don't want to fix what someone else doesn't think broken. Drmies (talk) 23:34, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

No, the word "pictured" does not count. I count 199 WITH the question mark at the end. We will make sure that the format is according to WP:MOS. I have asked Crisco 1492 to look it over as I know he is quite active in the DYK process. I am traveling presently, so IF you need a quicker response please contact User talk:7&6=thirteen, the co-creator of the article.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 23:49, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you Doug. I don't need to respond; Crisco is a very capable editor with plenty of DYK experience, and I gladly defer to him. He can give the final tick if he approves. Drmies (talk) 00:43, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

• I looked it over and I have a comment / question about the writing. The Selected architectural works section does not focus (or even mention) Devereux; this is confusing and shifts the focus away from the subject of the article. Also, the genealogy section is a confusing read; I thought censuses showed the familial relations as well, which would read much better than "this person was living in the same house as Devereux". As a side note, as he was mainly active in the US the article should use the DD-MM-YYYY format. Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:02, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your constructive criticism. We will work on that straight away. I have reworded the Genealogy section and the census information to show the family relations. If we don't catch the rest by the Black Out, we will get it immediately afterwards. --Doug Coldwell ^talk 13:19, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you Crisco. Doug et al, good luck--I hope you get lots of hits. Drmies (talk) 16:09, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Crisco: I have simplified the "Selected architectural works" section and explained he was involved in each of the projects shown. I believe we have addressed all the points you discussed. However, if we missed something, let us know and we will pick it up immediately after the Blackout.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 00:10, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

• I was thinking more along the lines of "Devereaux was the son of Nicholas and Dorothy Delorey. He had two brothers, named James and Nicholas Jr." or something like that. I'll be travelling myself during the blackout, so I may not get to review this again for a while. Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:44, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

Crisco: Followed your suggestions above and made the improvements.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 22:21, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

• Seems good to me. AGF on offline sources. Crisco 1492 (talk) 11:36, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Close paraphrasing concerns. For example, "He selected the Second Renaissance Revival style to convey the grandeur associated with public architecture at that time" is verbatim from the source cited. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:50, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Corrected and rewritten. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 11:54, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Good. However, though other examples are not as egregious, parts of the article remain uncomfortably close to the source. Compare for example "The federal post office and courthouse exemplifies the importance of the federal presence in the city." with "The building is a testament to the importance of the federal presence in the city". Nikkimaria (talk) 03:34, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Fixed. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 12:31, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

• Sorry, I was remiss in not checking the close paraphrasing (being sick will do that) You should make sure to check other sentences as well since there may be some that Nikkimaria hasn't listed; she only lists examples and not all concerns she has. Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:51, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

I ran it through the "plagiarism checker" and there is none. As to "close paraphrase" even the last phrase that was picked out was a shared five words, which are now gone. A lot of NHRP articles share the same phrases (hundreds according to my checker), so I would say that you can find three or four words that are in common in the same order. Hope that clarifies the problem. If you want to send you the report, please send me an e-mail and I'll get it to you. Sorry to have put you through this. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 23:19, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

• Looks fine to me now. Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:37, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

• Crisco asked me to take a look. I looked at several sources (not all) and found a couple of remaining issues:

• The "St Matthew's German Lutheran Church" has some remarkable similarity of wording to this online source (which is not necessarily public domain). Compare:

Source: .....designed two Gothic Revival churches in the city. St. Matthew's German Evangelical Lutheran Church, built in 1867-71, originally was polychromed, its stuccoed surface scored and overlayed with paint, mixed with sand, to simulate blocks of different colored stone. That colorful scheme reflected the influence of the English aesthete John Ruskin, who in works such as The Stones of Venice, advocated the use of polychromed stone in church architecture.

Article: This was one of two Gothic Revival churches he designed. Emulating English aesthete John Ruskin's advocacy for polychromed stone in ecclesiastical architecture — as he outlined in works such as The Stones of Venice — he used a polychromed "stuccoed surface scored and overlayed with paint, mixed with sand" to create the effect of different colored stone.

Additionally, part of that passage is a quotation that does not seem like a valid use of a direct quotation. I think there would be other ways to say that its original facade was stucco, scored to resemble stonework, and painted with paint that was mixed with sand, creating the polychrome effect of masonry construction using stones of different colors.

• There is a lot of unnecessary parallelism in wording between the first two sentences of "Career" and one source:

Source: He was an Irish immigrant who started his career as a plasterer, but soon became a noted architect and builder of churches and public buildings in South Carolina's Lowcountry.

Article: Devereux was an Irish immigrant who came to the United States where he worked as a plasterer. From that initial job, his career led to his being an architect of public buildings and churches in South Carolina's Lowcountry. --Orlady (talk) 01:09, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

All of the above was rewritten per your direction. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 10:44, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

• Looks OK now. Using an AGF tick because I didn't do the rest of the review. --Orlady (talk) 16:14, 28 January 2012 (UTC)