Template:Did you know nominations/Jo Clifford
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Hilst talk 14:00, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
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Jo Clifford
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that The Gospel According to Jesus, Queen of Heaven, Jo Clifford's 2009 play featuring Jesus as a trans woman, was criticised by the Archbishop of Glasgow (who had not seen the play)?Source: https://www.theguardian.com/stage/theatreblog/2014/aug/07/edinburgh-festival-2014-gospel-according-to-jesus-domino-effect- Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Alda Milner-Barry
- Comment: Open to re-wording or alternative hooks.
Created by GnocchiFan (talk). Self-nominated at 20:29, 14 March 2024 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Jo Clifford; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.
- Not a review, and I review oldest first so wouldn't get to this for ages anyway (but would not object to any other editor reviewing this in the meantime); hooks must not contain parentheses per WP:DYKMOS, and it's a crying shame "that Jo Clifford's The Gospel According to Jesus, Queen of Heaven depicts Jesus as a trans woman" probably won't fly per WP:DYKFICTION.--Launchballer 13:36, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- Ah, thanks for letting me know! Happy to propose the below as an alt. If anyone has a better way of wording this let me know:
ALT1: ... that The Gospel According to Jesus, Queen of Heaven, Jo Clifford's 2009 play featuring Jesus as a trans woman, was called an "affront to the Christian faith" by the Archbishop of Glasgow?
- GnocchiFan (talk) 17:30, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- Ah, thanks for letting me know! Happy to propose the below as an alt. If anyone has a better way of wording this let me know:
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Policy compliance:
- Adequate sourcing:
- Mostly fine, except: Newsweek is a source of marginal reliability, and so it shouldn't be used for a politically-sensitive, BLP-sensitive claim. I see that the Guardian cite verifies everything except the archbishop's name... Presumably there is some coverage from back in 2009, when he said this? - Neutral:
- Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:
- Other problems: - Going to be a little picky here on overquoting: I don't have a problem with the amount of quoting used for Clifford's personal experiences etc., but the statement about Jahwism seems like something that we could easily say in our own voice.
| Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation |
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QPQ: 
- So, you've nominated 6 articles before, and on 2 of those 6 you submitted QPQs voluntarily even though you were exempt. This is a kind thing to have done, and it would sort of make sense if you got to keep those exemptions for a rainy day, and I'm guessing that's how the reviewer on your last nomination thought it works too (courtesy ping Just-a-can-of-beans). But, for better or for worse, that's not how it works. Once you hit 5 nominations, QPQs are required, even if you didn't use all 5 exemptions. So, please do submit a QPQ for this article when you have a moment.
Overall: 
Hi, GnocchiFan! Great to run into you again. We keep bouncing around the same parts of the project, including the LGBT Jesus topic area. Glad to see you got this article to GA! Overall, this is mostly ready. There's three Xs above but they're all pretty easy fixes. Let me know if you have any questions. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 20:56, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
- Hello again! Thank you for taking your time out to review this article, very pleased to meet you again. Finding the name of the archbishop who said this was surprisingly difficult; I've removed the Newsweek source and his name as it doesn't make a big difference in the grand scheme of things. I've tried to re-word the comments on Jahwism but to be honest I'm not sure how else to phrase it - if you have any suggestions on improvement I appreciate it. Submitted a QPQ now, thank you for letting me know! –GnocchiFan (talk) 14:20, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Changes look good to me. QPQ is satisfactory. I also took a stab at finding an RS clearly naming the archbishop, and also came up empty. But the fact that such a simple thing isn't said explicitly anywhere is a good indication that there might be some sourcing issue here, so I think it's a good call to just cut the name entirely. But at that point, I'm hesitant to put this statement in a hook, if the most proximate source we have verifying the quote is from 5 years after the fact, refers to him only by his title, and does not give the context he said this in. Like, [1] is pretty alarming, and it makes me wonder if this is actually a paraphrase of Clifford's own paraphrase of something. (Note [2].) Having it in the article is one thing (The Guardian is generally reliable and there's no "smoking gun" that they did something wrong here), but putting it in a hook on the Main Page.... I don't know. Again, I'm hesitant. So you have a few options here, @GnocchiFan:
- Somehow find whatever source neither of us can find.
- Convince me I'm wrong. (It's been known to happen!)
- Pick a hook that doesn't mention this fact.
- Request a second reviewer. This would be a totally reasonable course of action. If a second reviewer doesn't have an issue with this going into a hook, I'll defer to them.
- -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 17:41, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Interesting. I can seem to find other generally reliable sources which use this quote, but they all seem to date after the 2014 interview – perhaps you are right. For the avoidance of doubt, I have removed this quote from the article and added one from the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Glasgow Mario Conti, who does have contemporaneous sourcing for his claims – perhaps this is where the mix-up has happened?
- ALT2: ... that The Gospel According to Jesus, Queen of Heaven, Jo Clifford's 2009 play featuring Jesus as a trans woman, was called an "offensive abuse of Christian beliefs" by Archbishop Mario Conti?
- Hopefully I'll be third time lucky on my hook; let me know if there are any other issues, and thank you for your patience throughout the DYK process. − GnocchiFan (talk) 18:14, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Ah! Looking at that source, this definitely does look like a case of a paraphrase being mistaken for a quote, combined with some less-reliable sources incorrectly guessing which Archbishop of Glasgow other sources were referring to. Perhaps someone overly relying on Clifford's own press kit; perhaps just a game of telephone. Either way, that clears that up. Thanks for getting to the bottom of it.
Good to go! -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 21:42, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Ah! Looking at that source, this definitely does look like a case of a paraphrase being mistaken for a quote, combined with some less-reliable sources incorrectly guessing which Archbishop of Glasgow other sources were referring to. Perhaps someone overly relying on Clifford's own press kit; perhaps just a game of telephone. Either way, that clears that up. Thanks for getting to the bottom of it.
- Interesting. I can seem to find other generally reliable sources which use this quote, but they all seem to date after the 2014 interview – perhaps you are right. For the avoidance of doubt, I have removed this quote from the article and added one from the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Glasgow Mario Conti, who does have contemporaneous sourcing for his claims – perhaps this is where the mix-up has happened?
- Changes look good to me. QPQ is satisfactory. I also took a stab at finding an RS clearly naming the archbishop, and also came up empty. But the fact that such a simple thing isn't said explicitly anywhere is a good indication that there might be some sourcing issue here, so I think it's a good call to just cut the name entirely. But at that point, I'm hesitant to put this statement in a hook, if the most proximate source we have verifying the quote is from 5 years after the fact, refers to him only by his title, and does not give the context he said this in. Like, [1] is pretty alarming, and it makes me wonder if this is actually a paraphrase of Clifford's own paraphrase of something. (Note [2].) Having it in the article is one thing (The Guardian is generally reliable and there's no "smoking gun" that they did something wrong here), but putting it in a hook on the Main Page.... I don't know. Again, I'm hesitant. So you have a few options here, @GnocchiFan:
- Hello again! Thank you for taking your time out to review this article, very pleased to meet you again. Finding the name of the archbishop who said this was surprisingly difficult; I've removed the Newsweek source and his name as it doesn't make a big difference in the grand scheme of things. I've tried to re-word the comments on Jahwism but to be honest I'm not sure how else to phrase it - if you have any suggestions on improvement I appreciate it. Submitted a QPQ now, thank you for letting me know! –GnocchiFan (talk) 14:20, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
